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Rimino

SETTING HEEL OF NECK PLANE

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Yes, a sharp plane is the tool to use to fit the neck to the button.  This is a difficult fit to check, because when it's assembled only the outside is visible. I check the fit by inserting a thin narrow strip of metal into the joint as a feeler gage. With it I can feel where the fit is tight and where it is loose even in the places where I cannot see the fit.  If my feeler gage indicates that one spot fits tighter than the rest, I plane wood of the tight spot until the fit is even everywhere.

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15 hours ago, Rimino said:

Do you think this one will work as skillfully and easily?:https://www.lie-nielsen.com/product/block-planes/adjustable-mouth-block-planes-?node=4072

Do you mean setting the neck angle / working on the bottom of the heel(place between heel and button) after the mortise is cut?

The Lie Nilsen it's fine, I've never tried it but they are definitely quality planes.  I prefer the 9 1/2 instead of 60 1/2 because it's just wider (2 inches instead of 1 3/4) and fits better in my hand, but it's a matter of habit.

The correct angle (and other measures) is set by working the mortise, leaving the projection higher just enough to allow the final adaptation of the heel / button joint.  For a better understanding of how I fit the neck you can watch my videos if you like

 

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15 minutes ago, DarylG said:

In addition to the good advice already given, don't forget to glue size the end grain of the heel. 

Crucial. Also, don't forget to glue size the edge of the top plate at the top of the mortise.

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1 hour ago, Davide Sora said:

The Lie Nilsen it's fine

Ok, I already have the Lie Nielsen.  I know what you mean by the wider plane fits better in the hand because I have a Record which is wider that I slightly filed to use for the fingerboard scoop, but I think it’s still flat enough in the middle to work the heel if I decide to.

 

1 hour ago, Davide Sora said:

leaving the projection higher just enough

Thanks a lot for all of the videos that you made.  Just to be sure, do you mean to get the angle projection maybe(?) 1mm higher than needed by only adjusting the mortise, completely stop adjusting the mortise, then only merely reduce the heel until the correct projection is acquired?

 

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2 hours ago, Brad Dorsey said:

I check the fit by inserting a thin narrow strip of metal into the joint as a feeler gage.

When you put the gauge in, how does it tell you where it is tight or loose since you can’t see it,?  For example, if it is tight at the top, but loose at the bottom, how will you tell it is loose since it won’t move or flex at the top where you have access to it?

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1 hour ago, DarylG said:

In addition to the good advice already given, don't forget to glue size the end grain of the heel. 

Do you mean the heel as being the side of the neck base that faces and goes against the mortise?

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13 minutes ago, Rimino said:

Do you mean the heel as being the side of the neck base that faces and goes against the mortise?

The end of the neck that faces the bridge. I also put a small chamfer on the bottom edge of this face to give a place for excess glue to go.

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5 hours ago, Rimino said:

Thanks a lot for all of the videos that you made.  Just to be sure, do you mean to get the angle projection maybe(?) 1mm higher than needed by only adjusting the mortise, completely stop adjusting the mortise, then only merely reduce the heel until the correct projection is acquired?

Something like that, but you will also have to enlarge the side walls of the mortise if you have to go down a lot (1 mm is a lot). The wall not to be touched is the widest surface of the mortise which establishes inclinations and length of the neck.

Regarding the glue-size of heel's endgrain surface, I confirm its importance and suggest doing so before gluing the fingerboard and before starting the neck setting, in order to be able to correct any twist or deformation of the heel when the glue has dried out. I do it long before neck setting when I just finish the scroll, as you can see here :

 

 

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I've got a squirrel tailed Stanley 101 that when finely set and sharpened works really nicely for neck purposes.
It's nice to have a few sizes to choose from.  101, 102, 9 1/2..  but usually it's the 101 that feels right. Early-Stanley-No-100-Squirrel-Tail-and-1

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11 hours ago, Rimino said:

When you put the gauge in, how does it tell you where it is tight or loose since you can’t see it,?...

You don't have to see it.  It's done by feeling how much resistance the gauge encounters as it slides around, not by what it looks like.

11 hours ago, Rimino said:

...if it is tight at the top, but loose at the bottom, how will you tell it is loose since it won’t move or flex at the top where you have access to it?

If the joint is tight at the outside where you can see it but there's a gap inside where you can't see it, you can feel resistance as the gauge enters.  But as the gauge goes farther in, you can feel that there's a gap inside because the resistance does not increase.  You can also wiggle the gauge back and forth.  It will pivot on the point on the outside where the joint is tight and move back and forth easily in the interior gap.

It feels quite different if there's no gap in the joint inside.

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5 hours ago, DoorMouse said:

It's nice to have a few sizes to choose from.

I just got one like that really cheap, maybe it will work too?

616A5211-009B-4815-9258-3C5FCE823E1A.jpeg

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3 hours ago, Brad Dorsey said:

You don't have to see it.  It's done by feeling how much resistance the gauge encounters as it slides around, not by what it looks like.

If the joint is tight at the outside where you can see it but there's a gap inside where you can't see it, you can feel resistance as the gauge enters.  But as the gauge goes farther in, you can feel that there's a gap inside because the resistance does not increase.  You can also wiggle the gauge back and forth.  It will pivot on the point on the outside where the joint is tight and move back and forth easily in the interior gap.

It feels quite different if there's no gap in the joint inside.

Thanks a lot, I know exactly what you mean, now all I need to do is to make the guage.

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3 hours ago, Rimino said:

I just got one like that really cheap, maybe it will work too?

616A5211-009B-4815-9258-3C5FCE823E1A.jpeg

As long as it is able to make very thin and uniform shavings with a good control of their uniformity in thickness during the cut, every plane with the blade wider than the surface to be cut is fine, the one that cuts better is always the most usable ;). You just have to try and see which one performs better and with which you are better at ergonomics

 

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4 hours ago, Rimino said:

Thanks a lot, I know exactly what you mean, now all I need to do is to make the guage.

For a gauge I use a strip of metal .006 inch thick, 5 millimeters wide and around 5 inches long.  I don't think that the exact size matters very much, but this size seems to work well.

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23 minutes ago, Brad Dorsey said:

For a gauge I use a strip of metal .006 inch thick, 5 millimeters wide and around 5 inches long.  I don't think that the exact size matters very much, but this size seems to work well.

Thanks for this.  Do you check the part of the mortise that faces the bridge with the fingerboard on?  I don’t see how you can (if you’re constantly checking the fingerboard projection) access the mortise, or do you just work around the fingerboard?

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On 4/10/2019 at 8:25 AM, Rimino said:

...Do you check the part of the mortise that faces the bridge with the fingerboard on?...

The fingerboard should be on while you fit the neck, but you don't need to check this fit because you make both these surfaces flat and two flat surfaces will always fit each other.  The trick is to  properly locate and orient these two surfaces.

The end grain surface of the neck should be planed flat before the fingerboard is glued on.

The corresponding block surface is cut flat with a chisel during the neck fitting process.  This surface needs to be cut to an orientation that will result in the correct fingerboard projection and in the neck being centered.  This surface also has to be located to yield the correct neck length.  Once all these goals are achieved with the projection and the overstand both too high by the same amount, then you just need to widen the mortise to move the neck towards the button until the projection and overstand are both correct and the neck fits the button.  

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32 minutes ago, Brad Dorsey said:

you don't need to check this fit

Ok, which fit do you check with the guage you talked about?

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On 4/10/2019 at 9:27 AM, Brad Dorsey said:

you make both these surfaces flat and two flat surfaces will always fit each other

 

On 4/10/2019 at 4:47 PM, Brad Dorsey said:

The fit between the neck and the button.

 

On 4/9/2019 at 10:25 AM, Davide Sora said:

The correct angle (and other measures) is set by working the mortise, leaving the projection higher just enough to allow the final adaptation of the heel / button joint.

Thanks a lot for this.  Neck setting is becoming clearer and way more simple to me now.  After two or three neck sets and putting a wedge under the fingerboard last of all on my last violin, I’m armed with some experience and now these sound principles and skills.

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Neck setting requires keeping all of the relevant measurements in balance through out the process so that no measurement gets ahead of the others. Each adjustment to any measurement will change all the others so you can only make small changes as you approach final specs. Ultimately the last adjustment of the sides of the mortise should fit perfectly as determined by chalk marking and the very last adjustment before gluing is to take one or two last shavings off the neck where it meets the button. This does not change the measurements but only changes the pressure required to close the joint. The neck should slide in smoothly but firmly until there is about a quarter mm gap at the button and then require a bit of pressure to close that gap. You should hear a tiny squeak as you dry fit the last bit which tells you that the joint is tight enough.

I use a Stanley 102 to take the last cuts off the neck and hold the neck in my left hand the plane in my right and put my thumb on top of the front of the plane which give enough control to take a single smooth slice of the heel of the neck. I  wipe the plane once on the side of my face before taking the final cut which gives the tiniest amount of lubrication and lets the plane glide smoothly.

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On 4/12/2019 at 9:02 PM, nathan slobodkin said:

keeping all of the relevant measurements in balance

Thanks a lot for all this information.  As you do this, I think you cut the sides of the mortise slightly narrow at first so the space gets ?mm beteeen neck and button, then you adjust the back of mortise that faces bridge to proper  finger board projection; then adjust sides of mortise and neck between neck and button with chalk repeatedly until It fits perfectly, and then take the one or two last shavings to create the 1/4 mm gap between neck and button.  Is this correct; if so, how ?mm initially close do you bring the neck to the button when you first start out?

 

On 4/12/2019 at 9:02 PM, nathan slobodkin said:

should fit perfectly as determined by chalk

Do you draw with a stick of ordinary chalk on the sides of the mortise, put the neck in and take it back out of the mortise and check the sides of the mortise to see where the chalk rubbed off to see where the adjustment needs to be made?

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9 hours ago, Rimino said:

...Is this correct; if so, how ?mm initially close do you bring the neck to the button when you first start out?...

That's basically  how I do it.

As far as how close the neck is to the button when you start out --  I think it depends on how good you are at setting necks.  If you're not so good, you should start with the neck farther from the button.  This gives you more opportunity to adjust all the other measurements and alignments as you work the neck the greater distance towards the button, but it takes more time.  If you're more skilled, you can start with the neck closer to the button.  This gives you less opportunity to adjust all the other measurements and alignments, but it can go faster because the neck is closer to its final position.

My approach is to make, as quickly as possible, the barest beginnings of a neck mortise that is much too narrow and much too shallow.  Initially, I simply want to create a flat surface in the neck mortise that I can hold the end-grain surface of the neck on.  At this point, the neck will probably be something like five millimeters from the button.  Then I hold the neck in this beginning of a mortise and check all the measurements and alignments.  What I learn from these checks tells me how to refine the mortise.  I proceed to adjust the mortise to make everything correct except the overstand and fingerboard projection, which I want to have both too much by the same amount.  Finally, I widen the mortise to move the neck towards the button until the overstand and fingerboard projection are both correct and the neck fits the button.

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On 4/10/2019 at 3:17 AM, Rimino said:

I just got one like that really cheap, maybe it will work too?

616A5211-009B-4815-9258-3C5FCE823E1A.jpeg

My favorite for neck setting and most other smaller work is a similar plane sold by Lie Nielsen.  As others have mentioned, super sharp is key, especially for the end grain.
https://www.lie-nielsen.com/product/block-planes/small-block-planes?node=4072

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