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millant

Any ideas about this (french?) violin bow? Thanks.

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Hi everyone,

Here you have some pictures of a violin bow a find very nice in all aspects (playing too) and it´s suppossed to be french. Please let me know what do you see from pictures since I´m just starting to study and see bows not only from a playing point of view. From my still great ignorance in bow aesthetic and constructive aspects I have some thoughts on this bow but I'd really like to hear from you. I see relevant: the kind and appearance of wood, top of head, nose, number of pins on both frog and button, rounded frog... What more should I look at?

Many thanks! 

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Looks like a nice bow but my eye is a bit thrown by the fact that the nose has been shortened and the thumb projection reshaped.

There are some very distinctive features so maybe someone with a better eye will spot it immediately, but it doesn't ring any bells for me. The ferrule is very swept back, the adjuster rather long and rounded at the back, and the frog very thick as it travels into the ferrule. 

Do you have a theory?

 

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Martin what makes you think the nose has been shortened and the thumb projection reshaped?

and why would someone shorten the nose anyway? It doesn’t appear to have been damaged.

Ive seen lots of older bows with that same shape and I just thought it was normal wear.

Edited by PhilipKT
Addendum

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1 hour ago, martin swan said:

Looks like a nice bow but my eye is a bit thrown by the fact that the nose has been shortened and the thumb projection reshaped.

There are some very distinctive features so maybe someone with a better eye will spot it immediately, but it doesn't ring any bells for me. The ferrule is very swept back, the adjuster rather long and rounded at the back, and the frog very thick as it travels into the ferrule. 

Do you have a theory?

 

Martin, thanks for your comments. I see the unusually short nose but I was not sure about its nature, maybe was shortened after an accident... And yes the thumb projection have been reshaped so we can not know how it was looking in origin. 

I have not a theory and I think I ´d need much more knowledge on bows for that, but looking some bows by well known old bow makers I was stimulated by those of Vigneron family, but it´s pure fantasy, I don´t know if it can be a nonsense. Specially I saw in the past some Vigneron frogs that seemed to be really similar to mine to my inexpert eyes; I later realized that I found similarities in some other french makers... 

 I once read a description of wood of some late J. A. Vigneron bows in terms of "many splits, not weaked wood, not fragile bows" (I think it was while reading L´Archet,) and I wonder if wood in my bow adjust to this description... 

So... I have no a theory and I have no idea. I have omitted the fact someone told me the bow could be pre-1900, around 1880-90, but again I´m not sure at all. These are the reasons for showing the pictures to this forum members; any suggestion is wellcome. Thanks.

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24 minutes ago, fiddlecollector said:

Vague resemblance of one of the Hussons, but may be completely off. Not sure the frog and button belong on the stick?

Thanks for your comments. I can not be sure of the frog and button belonging to the stick but I have no reasons to think they are not original to the stick...

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24 minutes ago, PhilipKT said:

Is the button replaced? The edge is the silver overlaps the stick.

Thanks PhilipKT for your comments. I ignore if the button has been replaced... In my response to Martin´s comment I talk about my vague intuition about Vigneron family bows and I think I remember some buttons in Vigneron bows overlaps stick too... but I can be wrong. 

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28 minutes ago, PhilipKT said:

Martin what makes you think the nose has been shortened and the thumb projection reshaped?

and why would someone shorten the nose anyway? It doesn’t appear to have been damaged.

Ive seen lots of older bows with that same shape and I just thought it was normal wear.

On any good bow the nose travels down to a null point and then rises up again very slightly or at least starts to think about it - on this bow it just goes downhill then .... stops

This is not something that's done deliberately - it's the result of an accident.

The thumb projection has been flattened - it's quite obvious in the upside down frog photo. Probably someone did it to make the bow more comfortable to use but it's a great pity for the value and the ease of identification.

At first glance I thought of Vigneron, but really it's just the adjuster with that wide collar. I would also suspect like fiddlecollector that this might be an amalgam.

Here's a Vigneron head illustrating a "nice nose" :

sr216vigneron-violinbow-head-msv.thumb.jpg.f845a6ab96b64552c27276baf249810d.jpg

 

 

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25 minutes ago, PhilipKT said:

Martin what makes you think the nose has been shortened and the thumb projection reshaped?

and why would someone shorten the nose anyway? It doesn’t appear to have been damaged.

Ive seen lots of older bows with that same shape and I just thought it was normal wear.

Hi PhilipKT. I agree Martin about the thumb projection reshape although I have always believe that it was the result of natural wear and tear of a careless player through hard playing after many years of use. 

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1 hour ago, millant said:

Hi PhilipKT. I agree Martin about the thumb projection reshape although I have always believe that it was the result of natural wear and tear of a careless player through hard playing after many years of use. 

Natural wear to the thumb projection tends to be very much on the player's side - this seems to me to have been filed down pretty symmetrically ...

But same difference ultimately!

 

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It looks like someone liked playing .  I cannot even imagine trying to play with the thumb projection like that.  I would hve to have something grafted on.

 

DLB

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2 hours ago, martin swan said:

On any good bow the nose travels down to a null point and then rises up again very slightly or at least starts to think about it - on this bow it just goes downhill then .... stops

This is not something that's done deliberately - it's the result of an accident.

The thumb projection has been flattened - it's quite obvious in the upside down frog photo. Probably someone did it to make the bow more comfortable to use but it's a great pity for the value and the ease of identification.

At first glance I thought of Vigneron, but really it's just the adjuster with that wide collar. I would also suspect like fiddlecollector that this might be an amalgam.

Here's a Vigneron head illustrating a "nice nose" :

sr216vigneron-violinbow-head-msv.thumb.jpg.f845a6ab96b64552c27276baf249810d.jpg

 

 

Thank you very much for the insight! What about the Button? Is it original?

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2 hours ago, martin swan said:

On any good bow the nose travels down to a null point and then rises up again very slightly or at least starts to think about it - on this bow it just goes downhill then .... stops

Yes I see what you mean. The upward curve is completed by the ivory point, so at first glance it looked complete. Thank you very much for your insight

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Thanks to all you Who commented. I really appreciate It. Here you have some more pictures of thumb projection and nose that seems to have been the main discussion points. 

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IMG_20190408_110453.jpg

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1 hour ago, fiddlecollector said:

Filing down thumb projections used to be common and considerably weakened the area in doing so , you can see where its cracking  and its right down to the underslide at the end..

Thanks fiddlecollector. Yes I see two little cracks running down to the underslide. The bow is easy to play like that and otherwise the frog is in good condition but it´s a pity...

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