The violin - or the violinist?

[Rue]

This is actually a great video that demonstrates /answers the seemingly unanswerable question of violin versus violinist - and what the audience hears...

 

[gtd]

18 minutes ago, Rue said:

a great video that demonstrates /answers the seemingly unanswerable question of violin versus violinist - and what the audien

I think I beat you too it in the fingerboard  but yes that is exactly what I thought. Those were some great observations. Now if we could turn out a million dollar violinist and skip the violins.......apparently we only get our notes 80% in tune. 

[Rue]

Did you! I'm sorry! 

Jeffrey can delete this thread then - we don't need two.

 

[gtd]

3 minutes ago, Rue said:

Did you! I'm sorry!

No worries. Not everyone frequents the fingerboard. 

 

[Violadamore]

[Yawns]  No new news to me here.  Given that all the instruments present are acoustically fit for playing in public to begin with, I've found that passing instruments around at practices or jams tends to surprise and upset those with the more expensive fiddles when they find out what can be achieved with "$50 and Free Shipping", well set up and in the right hands.

The question, raised in the Fingerboard thread,  of the bow's contribution to what a given player can pull out of a violin, is, IMHO, in crying need of more research.  The problem I see with bow comparisons, however, is that the perception of a bow's performance is intensely personal and objective, far more so than evaluating different violins. 

[Violadamore]

1 hour ago, Rue said:

Did you! I'm sorry! 

Jeffrey can delete this thread then - we don't need two.

 

No, please don't!  This thread has a different emphasis than the one on The Fingerboard does.

[PhilipKT]

I thought this was a fun video to watch, but it doesn’t reveal anything. The better the violinist the greater the effect on the violin, and videos of this nature always ignore the bow, and the fact that the better the violinist, The greater the contribution by the bow.

Also, the del gesu Didn’t sound as good in the other hands because playing an instrument like that takes adjustment that doesn’t happen in mere seconds.

Fun video, but I don’t think it revealed anything.

[palousian]

I agree that all three violins are OK, and yeah the player is a huge factor, as is the bow.  The Guarneri had a depth of tone lacking in the others, even played by the guy who had never played one before.  I think the video did indeed reveal that for another $9.99M you can upgrade to a bigger sound.  Big surprise.

[David Burgess]

9 minutes ago, PhilipKT said:

Also, the del gesu Didn’t sound as good in the other hands because playing an instrument like that takes adjustment that doesn’t happen in mere seconds.

That is true for any instrument, whether expensive or cheap.

Major players often talk about the years it took to get the best out of their Strad or Guarneri, without having ever invested that much effort in "lesser" instruments.

[l33tplaya]

The sound was somewhat garbled, at least on much of the talking portion, but the soloist is clearly a much better player, sounding good even on Eddy's or Brett's instrument.  OTOH, I preferred Eddy's instrument in the hands of the soloist than Brett's instrument.  Also somewhat remarkable was that Eddy and Brett sounded better on the del Gesu than on their own instruments. Now if they had recorded with better equipment...

The differences were notable even through low def you tube on laptop speakers..  The overtones and richness of tone on the Guarneri were to die for.

[Violadamore]

47 minutes ago, palousian said:

I think the video did indeed reveal that for another $9.99M you can upgrade to a bigger sound.  Big surprise.

 

24 minutes ago, l33tplaya said:

The overtones and richness of tone on the Guarneri were to die for.

$9.99M, IMHO, is a heckuva steep price for a "silver bullet", more so even than Evahs.  Of course, the Guarneri will last longer........ 

[David Burgess]

1 hour ago, l33tplaya said:

1. The sound was somewhat garbled, at least on much of the talking portion, but the soloist is clearly a much better player, sounding good even on Eddy's or Brett's instrument. 

2'The differences were notable even through low def you tube on laptop speakers..  The overtones and richness of tone on the Guarneri were to die for.

1. Eddie and Brett are actually really good players, if one doesn't discount them too much based only on their humor approach.

2. I listened to this through my desktop system, which is not a premium-level sound system, but vastly better than a laptop, and I did not notice this. The last time I worked with a studio engineer, he tried to listen to the recording in a variety of playback environments,  including laptops and the sound systems in cars. If you were listening through a laptop, might as well throw your opinion out the window. It's really that bad!

Sure, some might have a prejudice that women with large fake boobs are more appealing, but that doesn't happen to be my thing.

[Pate Bliss]

Never show your humor to the humorless -- Menuhin.   And he could be a funny guy or at least he tried real hard

Eddy and Brett weren't interested in making their violins sound good, it wasn't the point.   I have a hard time picturing Brett playing something seriously.  Though it's clear he's a fine player. 

This video will show you what a fine player Eddy really is.  And what a good violin he has, for that matter.  Video about sound production and evaluating your sound.  I listen to this stuff with premium headphones and a headphone amp.  Better for the purpose than any speakers I think.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9J-7ri4j_sQ

[gtd]

14 minutes ago, Bill Merkel said:

Brett playing something seriousl

I thought so too until a few months ago when I decided to find something where they were playing serious music, faces well....

 

[l33tplaya]

@ David - I suppose Eddy and Brett are  good players, but in most videos I have seen they are clearly not great, and if they are not trying, consistently, then they just don't believe in always trying. 

Their humor? Sometimes funny, but they frequently (not always) extend gags too long, and have a few too many quirks, imho. With a little mentoring/editing  and increase in production values, I think they could be really good.

@darth bill: I  negelected to mention that I also listened through really good headphones; I was just pointing out that I heard thr differences through a laptop. I was comparing the same player and bow - the soloist - and same passages  on the 3 violins. My headphone amp is a modded Stax model no longer available; SR-14, I think.   It would be unfair to compare different players on the same instrument for this purpose, of distinguishing the violin "sound." I would put my main speakers up against most of the great systems, at least for tone purity and even response (Carver's Amazing Line Source).

Recall that in the OP video, I liked Eddy's violin (and playing) >> Brett's. Thank you for the Eddy video; I didn't realize they also made serious videos.

[Pate Bliss]

Eddy had his own channel first, which he seems to have abandoned.  Lots of good stuff in it.

[Rue]

I get the impression that if a violinist doesn't constantly present themselves with some stuffy level of formality, they are readily dismissed as being inferior. 

Brett and Eddie are two young, very talented violinists who are carving out a comedy-based niche for themselves, to make classical music "cooler", primarily for the younger masses...

Classical music needs this approach...

I like the formal nature of classical music - a touch of glitz and glam - versus the grunge of rock and roll...but it doesn't have to be stuffy formal ALL the time.

Back to the topic:

I couldn't hear a significant difference between the violins - and if those guys couldn't tell the difference between violins and players either...I will deduce that I can trust my ears.

That doesn't remotely change the importance of having and playing an instrument that appeals to you whatsoever. You'll play better if inspired - if it's for a "real" reason or for a reason you think is real. 

[David Burgess]

1 hour ago, l33tplaya said:

@ David - I suppose Eddy and Brett are  good players, but in most videos I have seen they are clearly not great, and if they are not trying, consistently, then they just don't believe in always trying.

Depends on what one is trying to do, wouldn't it?

Jack Benny was a pretty good player, but if one only paid attention to the playing in his comedy sketches, how would one (you) know that?

[Pate Bliss]

Rue,  they sound different!  The conclusion they came to in the vid was if a player is playing different violins you can tell which is which, especially back to back.  That's the usual thing.  Part of it here is what DB was saying about familiarity with the instrument.  Lots of it. 

Here's another thread that doesn't have any responses, where that is happening.  The "Castelbarco" seems to have the most unique sound, something happening in its middle register.   But it could easily be because it's the most broken    (if it was).

https://maestronet.com/forum/index.php?/topic/342281-library-of-congress-violins-comparison/

[David Burgess]

13 minutes ago, Rue said:

I get the impression that if a violinist doesn't constantly present themselves with some stuffy level of formality, they are readily dismissed as being inferior. 

Yup, that will be how some people evaluate quality, if that's the only parameter they have to work with.

 Some of us have had opportunities to experience world-famous violinists and luthiers as they really are (off-stage),  and it almost never comes across as "stuffy".

[Pate Bliss]

5 minutes ago, David Burgess said:

Some of us have had opportunities to experience world-famous violinists and luthiers as they really are (off-stage),  and it almost never comes across as "stuffy".

You seem stuffy.  You should let your hair down.

[David Burgess]

3 minutes ago, Bill Merkel said:

You seem stuffy.  You should let your hair down.

I did, a couple of years ago. About halfway down my back. But naturally curly hair of that length was a maintenance nightmare, so now it's short again. 

[l33tplaya]

@Rue - Totally agree that less stuffiness is great for classical music andd broadening its appeal, but Two Set Violin engage in too much posturing for my tastes.  Sometimes they are funny. Brett in particular faces away from the mic when he says something aside.. They need better equipment for recording and to rehearse their jam a little more before taping. I hear very distinct differences on each violin when the same person plays, so what speakers or headphones are you using?

OTOH, classically trained  players can do this sort o' stuff: https://www.facebook.com/AlexDePueOfficial/videos/2267828779928641/

He usually uses a Glassell fibergalss bow!  Could never understand how he can play with it...

@ Darth Bill: Thanks for that link - that's one of the best links for that I've seen.  Where do you find this stuff? Small clips of each distinctive music phrase, back to back to back.  Aural memory is short, so this type of contrast is superb.  I had 2 favorites, the Guaneris, but what was up with the Castlebarco? It sounded like there was a lower/lower-middle register extra resonance of some sort? Also, the Amati sounded distinctly different.

[PhilipKT]

3 hours ago, David Burgess said:

That is true for any instrument, whether expensive or cheap.

Major players often talk about the years it took to get the best out of their Strad or Guarneri, without having ever invested that much effort in "lesser" instruments.

In my experience that has not been the case. A really great instrument is great in part because it does so much, and is so responsive to even tiny variations in speed or weight.

we are used to using a certain amount of energy to get a specific output, And playing a great instrument that requires much much less energy will almost always have us over playing. Also, because they are so responsive to nuance, and our typical instrument is less responsive, our playing will feel very out of control. It’s very disconcerting playing a Stradivarius,  but it’s much easier to make  change between two instruments of similar quality. 

 

[David Burgess]

6 minutes ago, PhilipKT said:

It’s very disconcerting playing a Stradivarius,  ....

 

That hasn't been my general experience. How many Strads have you played?