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There is a “Labeled, .... Poggi...” on the March T2

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Lot #245

Will be interesting to see the hammer price on this one in light of the final price of the one in the recent fine instruments auction.  The estimate is only $2-3k, so I assume that would imply that it is not real.

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Funny, I sold this violin almost 2 years ago. It didn't have the fake Poggi label and stamp when it left my hands. I sold it as a French/Mirecourt violin from the end of the 19th century. 

I don't think anyone is stupid enough to think this is even close to being a Poggi..

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11 hours ago, chrissweden said:

Funny, I sold this violin almost 2 years ago. It didn't have the fake Poggi label and stamp when it left my hands. I sold it as a French/Mirecourt violin from the end of the 19th century. 

I don't think anyone is stupid enough to think this is even close to being a Poggi..

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You sold the exact violin, and two years later it shows up in an auction with a fake label? That’s kinda weird.

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And they're representing it as "A Violin, Mid-20th Century" which is coincidentally how one would describe "1948"...which is the year on the fake label.  This doesn't reflect well on Tarisio, imho....

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12 hours ago, chrissweden said:

 

I don't think anyone is stupid enough to think this is even close to being a Poggi..

Whoever dressed it up with the fake label and stamp must have thought that someone would be that stupid. I wonder if the person who did the dressing up might be feeling a bit of angst right now, kind of like the people who paid massive bribes to get their children into elite Universities. The cat's out of the bag.

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Wow, you mean someone took a Mirecourt violin, cleaned it up a bit with some Tripoli, inserted a fake label and put it into a speculative auction hoping to make a profit ...?

I find it hard to believe that anyone should stoop so low.

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Well, the person I sold it to later informed me that according to Tarisio the violin was a Leon Mougenot Gauché which would indicate that they've seen the violin before without the mislabeling. The description is totally wrong, Tarisio must know that the violin earlier and French, they are not that naive. Doesn't suit them nice to put such a hefty estimate on a mediocre Mirecourt instrument. For what it's worth I sold it for $1000 

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A lot of huffing and puffing here ...!

1. T2 is a speculative auction for dealers. Caveat Emptor

2. This is not a very important violin - it's a bit much to assume that the same people will have seen and remembered the violin.

3. If it's a Mougenot-Gauché or something sold through their catalogues (quite credible to me) then it could be made any time up to about 1940, quite legitimately "mid 20th century", which i also find quite credible. I would not have thought this violin was late 19th century.

Far be it from me to wish to stand up for an auction house, but this is T2 not Tarisio, and there is no case to answer. The person who relabelled and branded it is a slimeball, and the person who buys it and sells it on as "I'm not actually selling it as a Poggi" likewise, but T2 is T2. The estimate seems pretty fair.

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Tarisio is simply stating what they see. It bears a Poggi label. They say mid-20th c., I could see it being older,  but they have it in hand and I do not. T2 is a speculative auction  (aren't they all!) and there are no guarantees. The estimate tells you what it isn't. The speculative part of it is what you think that it is.

As for the label change and other modifications, welcome to the trade. Look at the instrument as a whole and decide what it is,  then consider labels and brands. I go through this process every day with customers instruments. 

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In this latest T2 auction there seem to be a lot of violins described with a more specific "circa" than before...a slight sea change from previous auctions?

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On 3/14/2019 at 4:07 AM, martin swan said:

Wow, you mean someone took a Mirecourt violin, cleaned it up a bit with some Tripoli, inserted a fake label and put it into a speculative auction hoping to make a profit ...?

I find it hard to believe that anyone should stoop so low.

Well, of course I know that such things are done, and done frequently. The reason I am surprised it will is done here is that first of all it would be too easy to find out who did the deed. Presumably Chris knows to whom he sold the violin, Then Chris could contact Tarisio directly and expose the fraud, and then Tarisio could go back to the consignee And tell him they were going to correctly identify the violin, Or do nothing and risk the scorn of everybody here, and everybody here includes lots and lots of people who could influence others against Tarisio on the grounds that Tarisio is unethical.

So of course it’s done, I’m surprised it’s done in this instance because of the risk involved for everybody involved.

As a matter of fact, I would wager my last five years that Tarisio folks are Monitoring this thread and pondering options.

maybe I’m just too honest.

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18 hours ago, JRyn said:

Is it just me, or are the f's a little off kilter on lot 249....

It's just you. You should probably have your head examined.;)

And Tarisio isn't implying that #245 is a Poggi. I'm not sure that they're being unethical. Maybe the consigner could be more forthcoming. Among the many offerings this time are bows stamped "Tourte" and "Pecatte." Would you say they're being unethical there too?

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3 hours ago, PhilipKT said:

Well, of course I know that such things are done, and done frequently. The reason I am surprised it will is done here is that first of all it would be too easy to find out who did the deed. Presumably Chris knows to whom he sold the violin, Then Chris could contact Tarisio directly and expose the fraud, and then Tarisio could go back to the consignee And tell him they were going to correctly identify the violin, Or do nothing and risk the scorn of everybody here, and everybody here includes lots and lots of people who could influence others against Tarisio on the grounds that Tarisio is unethical.

So of course it’s done, I’m surprised it’s done in this instance because of the risk involved for everybody involved.

As a matter of fact, I would wager my last five years that Tarisio folks are Monitoring this thread and pondering options.

maybe I’m just too honest.

I do sympathise with your sense that something is awry.

However, T2 is quite deliberately separate from Tarisio because it's a speculative auction with absolutely no guarantees. It is a platform aimed at dealers who should know their stuff. I'm sure everyone who has seen the violin at any point since it was rebranded has just smiled wryly and thought "how silly". The fact remains that it's a nice Mirecourt violin, and T2 are entirely within their rights to put an estimate on it which will make it attractive to a buyer. They are acting for the seller - the buyer needs to know what they are doing. This is a fundamental truth of auctions.

You should withdraw the accusation that "Tarisio is unethical". That's simply wrong. I very much doubt they are '"pondering options", or that many people share your outrage at the fact that T2 have described this violin as "a violin".

If you are dipping your toes in the auction waters, you need to grow a pair before you wade in any further. If you don't wish to be the victim of your own ignorance or over-optimism, then stay away from auctions.

Ignore label and brands. Ignore estimates. Then you may one day dealer be.

OM ....

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2 hours ago, martin swan said:

I do sympathise with your sense that something is awry.

However, T2 is quite deliberately separate from Tarisio because it's a speculative auction with absolutely no guarantees. It is a platform aimed at dealers who should know their stuff. I'm sure everyone who has seen the violin at any point since it was rebranded has just smiled wryly and thought "how silly". The fact remains that it's a nice Mirecourt violin, and T2 are entirely within their rights to put an estimate on it which will make it attractive to a buyer. They are acting for the seller - the buyer needs to know what they are doing. This is a fundamental truth of auctions.

You should withdraw the accusation that "Tarisio is unethical". That's simply wrong. I very much doubt they are '"pondering options", or that many people share your outrage at the fact that T2 have described this violin as "a violin".

If you are dipping your toes in the auction waters, you need to grow a pair before you wade in any further. If you don't wish to be the victim of your own ignorance or over-optimism, then stay away from auctions.

Ignore label and brands. Ignore estimates. Then you may one day dealer be.

OM ....

All right, fair enough. I actually don’t think Tarisio is unethical, they certainly haven’t been in their dealings with me, but some other people in the thread appeared to insinuate that.

And it would seem to me that every auction houses reputation is based on being completely above board, So if they learned about a deliberately mislabeled violin, They should put some kind of disclaimer in the listing.

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1 hour ago, PhilipKT said:

.............And it would seem to me that every auction houses reputation is based on being completely above board......

You mean like how violin values are based on sound, or watch prices on accuracy?  :ph34r::huh::P

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7 hours ago, martin swan said:

...I'm sure everyone who has seen the violin at any point since it was rebranded has just smiled wryly and thought "how silly"...

Given this sentiment (which is obviously echoed throughout the thread), I wonder how this specific instrument came to with the "label lottery"?

Is it likely to have been picked for rebranding just because it's approximately the right age, and has comensurate wear? Or are fake Poggi brands like hammers - when you have one, the whole world starts to look a certain way...?

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Well I only had a quick look but one of the Barnabettis ain't one nor is the Apparut.

So is it better to have a fake Mirecourt label in a Mirecourt violin or a fake Poggi label in a Mirecourt violin?

And should the estimate be different because in one case we know that someone recently introduced a fake label, whereas in the other cases we don't know when it happened?

 

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27 minutes ago, martin swan said:

Well I only had a quick look but one of the Barnabettis ain't one nor is the Apparut.

So is it better to have a fake Mirecourt label in a Mirecourt violin or a fake Poggi label in a Mirecourt violin?

And should the estimate be different because in one case we know that someone recently introduced a fake label, whereas in the other cases we don't know when it happened?

 

 

Speaking of fakery who is this Del boy?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/A-Fine-Old-French-Violin-labelled-N-Audinot-Possibly-Collin-Mezin/132829601063?hash=item1eed42dd27:g:fIkAAOSw8sBbzjB6

??

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This is advertised quite clearly as not an Audinot. It looks rather like a Collin-Mézin from the 1920s/30s to me, and it seems clean - so aside from the fact that the seller is suggesting it might be earlier, I can't see what the problem is.

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39 minutes ago, martin swan said:

Well I only had a quick look but one of the Barnabettis ain't one nor is the Apparut.

So is it better to have a fake Mirecourt label in a Mirecourt violin or a fake Poggi label in a Mirecourt violin? 

And should the estimate be different because in one case we know that someone recently introduced a fake label, whereas in the other cases we don't know when it happened?

 

My point was more that the others (at which I had a very short look only, too;)) were estimated like "usual Mirecourtish" between 500 and 1 000.

I won't expect that the auction appraisers at a "Speculative and Trade" would be very dilligent with each item, so I'm agreeing with the Caveat thing. But in general auction estimations seem to follow strange rules which I wasn't able to understand ever, and each auction house has obviously it's own.

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