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Fesky Maloon

Help to identify “Vuillaume” violin

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Hello all,

I am new to Maestronet and am curious if your better trained eyes can help me.  

I inherited this Vuillaume-labeled instrument and I would love some assistance figuring out what it REALLY is.  

If any of you kind souls can give me a clue as to the age/origin/etc. that would be very much appreciated.

 

Ken

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89F00CB7-8E3B-4231-9E20-02A1428540AF.jpeg

60EC3A60-C218-4730-9D94-2575634B46B0.jpeg

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It doesn't look French to me ... outside chance it could be, but it looks much more like an early 20th century Saxon violin from where I'm sitting.

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Vuillaume more-often-than-not tagged his instruments on the inside on the upper treble bout on the back plate with a very flamboyant signature, easy to see with an inspection light and a dentist mirror (or an endoscope). Sometimes he wrote other things in there too, and sometimes his name is stamped somewhere inside.

If you don't have those tools to look inside, take it to a luthier to have a peek.

If you don't find any of those markings inside then 99.9% chance it's not a real Vuillaume. If you find something - specially the signature - then it might be worth looking further into it but you'll need someone in person to examine it for a proper assessment and appraisal.

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2 hours ago, martin swan said:

It doesn't look French to me ... outside chance it could be, but it looks much more like an early 20th century Saxon violin from where I'm sitting.

 

1 hour ago, zhiyi_zhang617 said:

Likely a (standard) factory-made copy, could be a new Chinese, but semi-sophisticatedly antiqued.

Nope, not Chinese. Ever since my new glasses and the subtle training provided by JS ( much obliged) and others I can tell this is not Chinese. I'm pretty sure about that.

Other than that I'm not sure and don't know enough. But  I'm with Martin re varnish, outline ( a bit neither here nor there) , edging. Not sure about ffs, but they don't look very impressive. Scroll rather timid for French ( how is that for a new frase; timid,  buttery, let's invent more) and fluting seems to stop before 6 o'clock. Maybe a Saxon box that went through a Mirecourt shop or otherwise frenchified? 

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1 hour ago, FoxMitchell said:

Vuillaume more-often-than-not tagged his instruments on the inside on the upper treble bout on the back plate with a very flamboyant signature, easy to see with an inspection light and a dentist mirror (or an endoscope). Sometimes he wrote other things in there too, and sometimes his name is stamped somewhere inside.

If you don't have those tools to look inside, take it to a luthier to have a peek.

If you don't find any of those markings inside then 99.9% chance it's not a real Vuillaume. If you find something - specially the signature - then it might be worth looking further into it but you'll need someone in person to examine it for a proper assessment and appraisal.

It has none of the features of a Vuillaume and is nothing to do with Vuillaume.

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A very common mistake made by many amateurish fakers is the way how the "7" is writtten with a middle line (here at the pencil number at the inside bottom), what is a 20th century habit.

The Vuillaume letter in the actual Tarisio auction lot 1 https://tarisio.com/auctions/auction/lot/?csid=2198880256&cpid=3572170752&filter_key=

demonstrates how he factually wrote the seven and other numbers..

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3 hours ago, hendrik said:

 

Nope, not Chinese. Ever since my new glasses and the subtle training provided by JS ( much obliged) and others I can tell this is not Chinese. I'm pretty sure about that.

Other than that I'm not sure and don't know enough. But  I'm with Martin re varnish, outline ( a bit neither here nor there) , edging. Not sure about ffs, but they don't look very impressive. Scroll rather timid for French ( how is that for a new frase; timid,  buttery, let's invent more) and fluting seems to stop before 6 o'clock. Maybe a Saxon box that went through a Mirecourt shop or otherwise frenchified? 

Thank you hendrik, Martin, et al!

It is all very helpful information.  

Ken

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22 hours ago, Fesky Maloon said:

Thank you hendrik, Martin, et al!

It is all very helpful information.  

Ken

Well don't take my explanations too seriously. Martin knows what he is talking about.  Me : not so much.

It might help if you could take more pictures, including a view from the endpin area, the corners where the ribs meet dead-on and at an angle if they are mitered, and pictures of the scroll straight on focussing on the eyes. I'm not sure if the pictures showing the outline of the body are completely straight on.

If you could take some pics of the linings and blocks on the inside by taking out the endpin and shoot through the opening that would be great but don't let your soundpost fall over. You might get a look through the ffs and tell us what you see or take a picture if you can.

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22 minutes ago, matesic said:

Looks like the "antiquing" was done by shotgun

No, a shotgun would be more random!

For comparison:IMG_2916.JPG.b1b63f87e5656897f04ecc2e25b99d77.JPGIMG_2915.JPG.36a3094e57ba979a53bd876868271c47.JPGIMG_2917.JPG.bdf41f37a7a498ecb462d6b6cb6c9e8e.JPG

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On 3/9/2019 at 12:21 AM, Fesky Maloon said:

Hello all,

I am new to Maestronet and am curious if your better trained eyes can help me.  

I inherited this Vuillaume-labeled instrument and I would love some assistance figuring out what it REALLY is.  

If any of you kind souls can give me a clue as to the age/origin/etc. that would be very much appreciated.

 

Ken

33D62DFE-ED4B-4E46-9367-7F96D9EA3F0D.jpeg

7AFBA61A-4AAB-455F-A1DC-B34236F0EB58.jpeg

7CBB8505-0B78-4A0F-AD38-1210F9BBF8B8.jpeg

B193FCAF-111D-474F-9123-53992F572D7C.jpeg

3082E574-51C3-463C-BADC-C64109450884.jpeg

26F93E13-C1CD-413E-AB5B-1A4278AA7837.jpeg

493C28E9-B558-4D54-AD14-DABA0577FDD5.jpeg

89F00CB7-8E3B-4231-9E20-02A1428540AF.jpeg

60EC3A60-C218-4730-9D94-2575634B46B0.jpeg

Disregarding the matter of assessment of the shape, model and style of your violin and indeed its origins as to the country and exact maker, I would point you towards some sadly unavoidable facts. A genuine violin that may have indeed at some point been sold from Jean Baptiste Vuillaume's workshop marked with a Serial Nu 2714 would have been made at JBV's last commercial premises located at 3, Rue Demours-Ternes. This applies to most JBV's instruments commencing approx. with Serial Nu 2305 and ending somewhere around Serial Nu 2308. I note your violin contains (what would appear to be at first sight) a JBV label placing the instrument at the previous JBV's workshop located at Rue Croix des Petits Champs. In over 45 years of moving around violins, I have not met a single genuine instrument made by Jean Baptiste Vuillaume that would have still used Rue Croix des Petits label in the equivalent of the year 1867. Ergo, just eight years before JBV passed away in 19th February 1875. This is perhaps the simplest way how to obtain an answer you'd like to get.

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What the OP would like to get is an authoritative opinion on what the violin IS, not what it ISN'T.  That would involve looking at the violin, not the labeling.

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48 minutes ago, J-G said:

What the OP would like to get is an authoritative opinion on what the violin IS, not what it ISN'T.  That would involve looking at the violin, not the labeling.

My deepest apologies J-G... A violin?

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A violin, then, if that is your best guess.  But can you narrow it down a little?

The OP knows it isn't a Vuillaume, and asks what it REALLY is. No need to tell him the bad news, the unavoidable facts, etc. 

 

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On 3/9/2019 at 1:39 PM, martin swan said:

It doesn't look French to me ... outside chance it could be, but it looks much more like an early 20th century Saxon violin from where I'm sitting.

 

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9 hours ago, J-G said:

A violin, then, if that is your best guess.  But can you narrow it down a little?

The OP knows it isn't a Vuillaume, and asks what it REALLY is. No need to tell him the bad news, the unavoidable facts, etc. 

 

Dear J-G, "A Violin" as a basic description is a good start when looking at providing someone with opinion in this particular case. Unless the person wishing to obtain a firm opinion from me, (or anyone else in the violin business), to which extent I would suggest they would have to put the violin in my hands - which is a paid service in any case, then they simply have to live with whatever information I choose myself to divulge for free. Furthermore, bad news when it comes to instruments potentially made by Jean Baptiste Vuillaume are simply good news as one is saved having to invest into further methods of assessment including those of scientific nature. In my humble opinion therefore, providing the owner of the instrument with unavoidable facts can only be a benefit to them. On the other hand, (as you clearly choose to "defend" the owner against my opinion), and ask for more specific information, then this one is for you. The violin is "in my opinion" French, made somewhere around 1875 - 1910...

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On 3/9/2019 at 2:39 PM, martin swan said:

It doesn't look French to me ... outside chance it could be, but it looks much more like an early 20th century Saxon violin from where I'm sitting.

Or an early 21st century Reghin.

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Looks a bit too old for Rhegin to me. 

Upper B sting at the treble side is off centre ergo is French.:D

I have no clue ( as usual).

What about more pictures ?

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