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Sebastian Kloz violin

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7 hours ago, sospiri said:

 

 

There is no more. In the hands of a virtuoso violinist a well made violin sounds wonderful. All of the stuff people write and say about superior sounding violins is hyperbole based on their emotions and preconceptions. Every violin sounds different, unique.

Absolutely!!!! 

DF can dream about the perfect sound all he wants but violins sound the way they do because of how they are constructed. If one is teaching violin making one does not tell students to imagine the sound they want. You tell them to use this model and that arching and that thickness and then bring the plates back to the teacher for final adjustment. The tools and methods of the construction form the "school" of making

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7 hours ago, Jeffrey Holmes said:

If you'd like to continue here, please consider an attitude adjustment. While I don't excuse inappropriate responses by others, it seems to have a propensity to attract these types of responses. Try being less of a target please.

What´s about some advices for those, whose responses you don´t excuse ? 

I don´t see any reason to change neither attitude nor contents. However I seriously consider to leave this forum, in which some dilletantes like these of the "little club" have a much too loud voice. The output for myself is too low - I not really need this forum, and it actually would be a fine idea not to waste time here any longer.

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3 hours ago, nathan slobodkin said:

Absolutely!!!! 

DF can dream about the perfect sound all he wants but violins sound the way they do because of how they are constructed. If one is teaching violin making one does not tell students to imagine the sound they want. You tell them to use this model and that arching and that thickness and then bring the plates back to the teacher for final adjustment. The tools and methods of the construction form the "school" of making

What you describe, is not a "school", it is a beginner-apprenticeship about first steps, which doesn´t decide about quality. This is not school, this is nursery.  When your "school" didn´t bring more or even something of a completely different dimension, you sadly are lost. Then you must have really great talent to survive after such "education". In our time we have an increasing number of makers, who have understood this and have great success. You prefer to become member of the "little club" ? Within this club sound is not paid, you could contribute, that sound is just like it sounds. That fits quite fine the club- ideals : why to pay for something, which just is like it is ?

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DF,

Some of the  people you are denigrating as having no knowledge are recognized experts in the field of instrument making, restoration and expertise. Since you hide behind an alias I find it hard to take anything you say seriously.

Yes, of course the first steps in training a violin maker are equivalent to nursery school yet those lessons become the foundation for everything that follows and the way some one uses their tools and the construction methods they utilize come from the basics and identify the place and teachers where they came from. That identifies a school just as the painters choice of materials and methods of application identify theirs.

If you cannot discuss your ideas in a civil manner without insulting the opinions of other valuable contributors to this forum I invite you to find another place to vent your vitriol.

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All evidence is pointing to someone selling instruments "to be paid for sound" and who is now on a vendetta, riding personal attacks against everybody who in his eyes is representing the actual concept of expertising or pricing. Maybe being accused of over-selling something?

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10 hours ago, nathan slobodkin said:

Some of the  people you are denigrating as having no knowledge

Don´t remember to have done so in only a single case. However some apparently don´t have enough knowledge. This could apply e.g. for Martin Swan - no education in making, only poor or no education at all in playing, not reaching any grade but enjoying some "circles" with his "traditionals"....and knowing all better.

10 hours ago, nathan slobodkin said:

Yes, of course the first steps in training a violin maker are equivalent to nursery school yet those lessons become the foundation for everything that follows and the way some one uses their tools and the construction methods they utilize come from the basics and identify the place and teachers where they came from. That identifies a school just as the painters choice of materials and methods of application identify theirs.

As I yet told, the common interpretations of the term "school" were not done by me, but great experts like Hamma and some more. It is also a live going-on process, made by many participants as museum-curators, authors of important standard literature like Walter Senn in the case of Stainer ( who interestingly denies an education by any italian school because of too less accordance in working methods ) and many more violinmaking literature or violin- encyclopaedia. We have read here, that all these experts ( often with great access to instruments of the referred "schools" in their own institutions ) allegedly use an unprecise or even wrong understanding of the "school"-term, but naturally the members of the little club know all much better.

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21 hours ago, Danube Fiddler said:

1) What´s about some advices for those, whose responses you don´t excuse ? 

2) I don´t see any reason to change neither attitude nor contents. However I seriously consider to leave this forum, in which some dilletantes like these of the "little club" have a much too loud voice. The output for myself is too low - I not really need this forum, and it actually would be a fine idea not to waste time here any longer.

1) Both in the forum and through private messages, you seem to have a belief that you're the sole victim of warnings, deletions, or edits.  What gives you that idea? 

2) That is your prerogative.  Mine is to choose to set the server to allow me to review your posts before I approve them at this point.

I believe, through all the bluster, you often have an interesting point of view... and it's certainly not a requirement to agree with everything that is written here... I certainly don't... but I have noted that the threads in which you participate are often drawn well off topic, and often decline to parry and thrust, regularly  including subtle and not-so-subtle insults (denigration). While you're not the only one who participates in this behavior, it does appear you are one of the participants who is least likely to accept responsibility, or be humble enough to try and clarify your viewpoint without making the experience less enjoyable to others.

While I don't feel moderating this forum is a "waste [of] time", I can think of a number of things I'd rather be doing than acting as a referee.

How you proceed is up to you.  

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2 hours ago, Danube Fiddler said:

Don´t remember to have done so in only a single case. However some apparently don´t have enough knowledge. This could apply e.g. for Martin Swan - no education in making, only poor or no education at all in playing, not reaching any grade but enjoying some "circles" with his "traditionals"....and knowing all better.

 

This is quite bizarre.

I am here as a person who sells violins. Outside of the very lowest level of student instruments, I rely entirely on the accepted expertise of others in order to establish the authenticity and the fair price of what I am selling.

So your personal attacks make no sense. If I was presenting myself here as a player or a maker, then I might be offended. As it is they are as irrelevant as they are petty.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Danube Fiddler said:

great experts like Hamma

I enjoyed getting to know Hamma late in his life (and early in mine) as he stayed in Vienna looking for violins for his book. I was very impressed with his sense of humour. My favourite “Word of wisdom” (which I quote on every passing occasion) was “Die Dunklen san nit Heller!” (the dark ones aren’t lighter)

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3 hours ago, Danube Fiddler said:

Don´t remember to have done so in only a single case. However some apparently don´t have enough knowledge. This could apply e.g. for Martin Swan - no education in making, only poor or no education at all in playing, not reaching any grade but enjoying some "circles" with his "traditionals"....and knowing all better.

I think Martin responded with a lot more restraint than I would have if my professionalism was challenged... Martin IS an authority in the violin family world as his certificates mean something.  Being able to do so is an earned profession, not a given one.  “Self-taught” or not, he has still earned the right.  And I’m pretty sure he has notable credit for his playing abilities, as well.  Martin, I’ll go ahead apologize for Danube Fiddler, as he seems a bit misguided in his judgement... we can’t place blame with being insane, right?

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5 hours ago, Jeffrey Holmes said:

No need to continue on this course.  Danube Fiddle is no longer with us, electronically.  

His choice.

I like how you added “electronically” to that, otherwise it would have sounded a lot like a mob hit. :ph34r:

Oh... Martin, I did not read page 5 of this topic when I jumped in to defend your honor ;) You had already done that. 

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13 hours ago, jacobsaunders said:

I enjoyed getting to know Hamma late in his life (and early in mine) as he stayed in Vienna looking for violins for his book. I was very impressed with his sense of humour. My favourite “Word of wisdom” (which I quote on every passing occasion) was “Die Dunklen san nit Heller!” (the dark ones aren’t lighter)

This sounds Monty-Pythonesque (or a Koan);):

Maybe he wrote "Deutsche Geigenbauer" on his book just because there wasn't enough place on the cover for something like "...sowie die Österreich-Ungarischen, die Böhmischen und was einem noch dazu einfällt".

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When you think about it like this, the "Italian Violin Makers" books, whether by Hamma or Jalovec are also citing a country in their title that didn"t exist for much of the time most of the makers listed therein were alive and working! Looking at making techniques and styles, you get the full variety from inside mold (Cremona) to BOB without blocks (Brescia) to BOB with blocks (Naples) or with a trench (early Turin) and even outside mold (Turin after 1810), so lumping all of the "Italian" makers together seems as problematic as the so-called "German language sphere" idea. 

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Here we see an Italian cello, made in Munich 1907 by the founder and president of the German violinmaker society, so what?;)

https://tarisio.com/auctions/auction/lot/?csid=2198945792&cpid=3560144896&filter_key=

"In 1888, having married the daughter of Andreas Rieger, musical instrument maker, he moved to Munich and established the firm "Rieger and Fiorini" (1889–1914). He established himself in Germany, such that he was a founder of the German Violin-Makers' Society, and served as President for several years.[1]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giuseppe_Fiorini

 

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Back on topic somewhat, are there any pictures of handwritten Sebaftian Klotz labels?  I only ever see printed block labels. 

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