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Sebastian Kloz violin


reg

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3 hours ago, martin swan said:

A construction trait (such as the use of a central pin) IS documentation.

Ridiculous.

Apparently you have no more documents than your "construction trait"  and so the last state of research seems to be not much changed : No document existing, which would prove an apprenticeship in the Amati shop / comparable e.g. to the document, the Mittenwald Museum can present ( however not in original ) about Matthias Klotz in Venezia.

Let´s speak about your ridiculous "construction trait - proof" in the case of central pin

If I do a central pin in my next violin, then I can prove to be pupil of Amati ? - Congratulation to your fine logical capabilities !     Never thought about, that Stainer just could have used or even self-develloped a similar tool, of which he only had heard to be in use by some ( not all ) Cremonese makers ? Historical proof is something different.

4 hours ago, martin swan said:

I have no personal experience of Jacob's own making, but even if he was a tenth rate maker this would have no bearing on his understanding of violin-making history. This kind of use of logical fallacy is why we consider you to be a troll.

 

Yes, I know to be a friend of your "little club" of sound - ignorants.:)

My rating of Jacob wasn´t only a rating of his new-making but included his importance as expert in style-critical authentification and any kinds of his importance - he may have some limited knowlegde, but much to less to be important - this will be the reason, why he doesn´t / didn´t dare to give certificates ( as you claim , but as so often you could be wrong even here ). In your case not the same but even worse : No maker, no player - what you are able at all ? Some experiences as DJ, eventually .......Your "little club" is invited to go on in knowing all better than great experts like Hamma and many others, who really are or have been important.

And naturally : Thanks for compliments !

 

 

 

 

 

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"Latest research" and "great experts like Hamma"  all in one post.

Hamma is not as great as he used to be thanks in part due to the latest research.

And then the now customary pubertal string of insults. 

This  guy's  half cryptic ramblings are not worth the aggravation.

Jeffrey, is there an ignore feature somewhere?

 

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Thank you all - hope I can bring this back on track. I enclose a pic of the label and the Chanot certificate. There is also a note on a William H Luff letterhead who sold this violin in1961 stating 'violin by Sebastian Kloz' ( Does anyone  know of this dealer?)

I trust these photos are better!

The PDF at the end is the certificate

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201902190938.pdf

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6 hours ago, reg said:

Thank you all - hope I can bring this back on track. I enclose a pic of the label and the Chanot certificate. There is also a note on a William H Luff letterhead who sold this violin in1961 stating 'violin by Sebastian Kloz' ( Does anyone  know of this dealer?)

 

Bill Luff was an excelent maker, a violin of his is in the current Tarisio sale https://tarisio.com/auctions/auction/lot/?csid=2198945792&cpid=3238658048&filter_key= I am not aware of him as a "dealer".

Nice to see that Chanot knew that Mittenwald is in Bavaria, and not Tyrol:)

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11 hours ago, reg said:

Thank you Jacob

All very interesting

So they did the same label 'badge engineering' in Bavaria as well?

 

When I remember right, I even have read something different ( as part of the explanations given in the Mittenwald Museum ) : The early Mittenwald makers mostly didn´t label at all

http://www.geigenbaumuseum-mittenwald.de/fileadmin/webseite/Geschichte/Kloz_WEB_ENGLISCH-01-03-2017.pdf

So it was downright necessary, that someone did it later - and in mass-production such labels are just more economic. :) Most probably it was done by dealers.

11 hours ago, reg said:

It is a lovely instrument and (DF allowing?) it sound beautiful!

I not only allow but even request fine sound. Until I got contact to the little club, I thought this would be quite common.....

Anyways Congrats to your violin !

 

 

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4 hours ago, martin swan said:

"To date, the earliest known instrument made by Kloz is a viola from 1704 with an original label and easily legible date."

You became victim of a slightly wrong translation in the museum - website.   I will try to re-translate for you the German original text :

" To date,  the earliest known instrument made by Mathias Kloz with original label and easily legible date is a viola from 1704. " ( you see the semantic difference ? )

If this viola actually would be the earliest known instrument of all existing ones, that would mean: M. Klotz didn´t build violins during ~ 20 years after his apprenticeship, or at least no single instrument survived, in contrast to many surviving after this date - not very probable. Or he had built only lutes during decades, all not surviving and then suddenly made such a fine viola as first instrument of the violin family ??   Much more probable, what the Museum / Zunterer writes later in the referred text - you are invited to read the whole text !

" Even after he had switched largely from making lutes to violins, Mathias Kloz presumably sold his instruments as before without labels, primarily through established business contacts with dealers and music shops who may possibly even have ordered unsigned instruments."

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What Zunterer actually writes is:

"Violin makers working in urban centres regularly labelled their violins as they were in direct contact with musicians and wanted to strengthen ties with their customers and advertise their work. Even after he had switched largely from making lutes to violins, Mathias Kloz presumably sold his instruments as before without labels, primarily through established business contacts with dealers and music shops who may possibly even have ordered unsigned Instruments"

which I would consider merely conjecture on his part

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Jacob just by way of clarification, William Luff sold the violin to Mr L... in 1961- who is the guy offering me this instrument! He must have been a dealer? Luff also mentions the certificate by Chanot.

I accept, however , that this is not genuine and may well just call it 'Klotz family' - would that be fair?

It needs work to the tiny crack at the button end and the pegs aren't seating easily, but other than that it is in very good nick

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25 minutes ago, reg said:

and may well just call it 'Klotz family' - would that be fair?

You may as well call it Sailer, Hornsteiner or Schmidt-Schulze family.;) The point is (as also written in the Zunterer essay) that most of the Mittenwald makers of the period were trained by the same masters, for instance Sebastian Kloz, and therefore it's nearly impossible to separate their work as long as it hasn't very personal and well documented features, and that there are very few specialised experts being able to tell them apart.

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Though it seems to be apparently very dangerous to link some essay here (because they are deliberately cited taking single passages out of every context) I would recommend Roger Hargrave's excellent and very detailled writing about the 1679 original preserved Stainer. In spite of this being from 1987 and possibly Roger might see some details different in the meantime, it's an archetypical example how to analyse constructional traits and deduce from them the school and training of a maker. Even the inside bottom pin is mentioned and (what a glory) a little remark about a "sound-related" feature!:rolleyes:https://www.roger-hargrave.de/PDF/Artikel/Strad/Artikel_1987_09_Jacobus_Stainer_1697_PDF.pdf

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1 hour ago, reg said:

Jacob just by way of clarification, William Luff sold the violin to Mr L... in 1961- who is the guy offering me this instrument! He must have been a dealer? Luff also mentions the certificate by Chanot.

I accept, however , that this is not genuine and may well just call it 'Klotz family' - would that be fair?

It needs work to the tiny crack at the button end and the pegs aren't seating easily, but other than that it is in very good nick

The Bill Luff I remember as a child, was entirely preoccupied with making new violins. Like my father, who spent his life making new violas, both sold the odd old violin when the occasion arised. I’m not certain if that qualifies to call them both “dealer”, but wouldn’t bother arguing about that. Certainly neither presented themselves as in any way exceptional connoisseurs of antique violins.

 

I suppose one could argue “Klotz family”, since the whole town was more or less related. “Klotz School” would be a couple of degrees better, since it all more or less goes back to Sebastian Klotz. "Mittenwald ca. 1800 with apocryphal S.K. label" would be squeaky clean.

 

Congratulations for the very nice fiddle.

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Now recalling the correct english name (dorsal pin) I can add some further informations for all being interested or those being obliged to do their homework (before insulting better informed people):

As an important feature reg. the question if Stradivari was an Amati shop apprentice (probably not, so the common sense) it was widely discussed, at least here

https://tarisio.com/cozio-archive/cozio-carteggio/young-stradivari-part-2/

Maestronet had some treads about it, some interesting scans are here

 

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5 hours ago, Blank face said:

As an important feature reg. the question if Stradivari was an Amati shop apprentice (probably not, so the common sense) it was widely discussed, at least here

 

As Dilworth writes, the dorsal-pin question is not suitable as proof e.g. in the case of Stradivari ( against an apprenticeship in the Amati workshop ) , therefore naturally also not in the case of Stainer ( pro an appr. ) - as I had explained you some posts ago.

 

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On 2/18/2019 at 7:41 PM, Danube Fiddler said:

One pin makes/ separates no school. Rather more some typical sound-functional things like archings and graduations as naturally the underlying sound-ideals and also asthetical things expressing in a lot of things ( where Amati and Stainer are not so close - may be you don´t have a sense for it )

 

On 2/19/2019 at 12:49 AM, Danube Fiddler said:

Let´s speak about your ridiculous "construction trait - proof" in the case of central pin

 

6 hours ago, Danube Fiddler said:

As Dilworth writes, the dorsal-pin question is not suitable as proof e.g. in the case of Stradivari ( against an apprenticeship in the Amati workshop ) , therefore naturally also not in the case of Stainer ( pro an appr. ) - as I had explained you some posts ago.

 

You missed the point completely - it's not prove about a direct workshop apprenticeship in the case of Stainer, but a strong evidence to count him to the Amati school, which could be also a chain of apprenticeships. Regarding aesthetical and stylistical relations you could argue with Roger.

The dorsal pin is, as you might have learned, as an important constructional trait discussed latest since the 1980s (s. Roger's essay, too), nothing ridiculous.

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I hear the familiar rumble of goalposts moving ...

What concerns me is the definition of a "school". In its correct usage, as opposed to in auction catalogues or grandiose patriotic projects, the word "school" means what you would expect - in other words a particular learning context.

The discussion really isn't about whether Stainer was a pupil of one of the Amatis, but whether there is such a thing as a German school or even a Stainer school.

If we choose to use the term correctly, Stainer is a significant figure in the Amati school. He follows the early Cremonese construction method. 

On the other hand, the is no school of Stainer since there are no followers who replicate his method. There are thousands of Stainer-influenced makers, but they are copying the external traits (arching, corner work, outline, f-holes) while following a different construction method.

We would not call the early Dutch makers "Amati school" simply because they made violins that looked like Amatis.

I know many here will feel these distinctions are irrelevant, but we "sound-deniers" have to console ourselves with our silly historical obsessions .... it helps us to cope with the gaping emotional void in our lives.

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You forgot

On 2/19/2019 at 12:49 AM, Danube Fiddler said:

.Your "little club" is invited to go on in knowing all better than great experts like Hamma and many others, who really are or have been important.. 

to which we happily invite Zunterer, Hargrave, Dilworth and others talking about ridiculous stuff like how linings are morticed into blocks, ribs were bent, edges were formed or most ridiculous pins, but not....

 

On 2/19/2019 at 6:26 PM, Danube Fiddler said:

even request fine sound. Until I got contact to the little club, I thought this would be quite common...

Glad to be with all this third grade DJs and the like.

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