Sebastian Kloz violin

[reg]

Ok folks, I have read everything I can on Kloz and absorbed the threads dealing with fakes, fake labels etc but could this be genuine? The photos don't do it justice really

Some features: very narrow at the top of the peg box; bushed pegholes; neck graft (genuine); one piece rib with Mittenwald notch; wear to the right of the chinrest?

...also a certificate from Joseph Chanot 1922 but the label is very dark and  difficult to read dated 1766

Some features that have made me pause is that it is in almost too well-preserved condition, and the button has no ebony crown (could that be from the neck graft)

 

Be very grateful for comments

[Blank face]

It looks like a decent old Mittenwald, IMO more late 18th century or close to 1800.

Some of the assumed genuine Josef Kloz sen. I've seen looked similar, but it could be that this maker also sold instrument made by others with his label (as a dealer or early wholesaler). The photos aren't so focussed and detailled that it's possible to tell much more.

[reg]

Thank you BF - what details shall I concentrate on please?

I will use a better camera

[palousian]

1 hour ago, reg said:

Thank you BF - what details shall I concentrate on please?

I will use a better camera

Reg, you've been here for awhile.  Please read the helpful guidelines on photographing instruments, and then follow them.

 

[reg]

Yep sowwy - will do!

[Blank face]

It would be important to see some better details of edgework and the label.

[martin swan]

On 2/15/2019 at 12:14 PM, reg said:

 

Some features that have made me pause is that it is in almost too well-preserved condition, and the button has no ebony crown (could that be from the neck graft)

The ebony crown is only needed if the size of the button needs to be adjusted.

Very often when resetting a neck or making a new one, the match between the button and the heel starts looking less good, and the ebony crown is a way of making it tidy.

These days people do it as little as possible, since it inevitably means losing quite a bit of the original button.

In other words, it's very common to see old violins with neck grafts but without ebony crowns.

[Danube Fiddler]

Hi reg,

my first impression about this violin was : 

- decent until even fine violin, but not completely in fine condition ( general appearance and particularly varnish fitting to old Mittenwald violins, varnish quality even exceeding some of them ) - but I am absolutely not an expert.

Because until now we don´t have any statement about origin by experienced dealers like Martin Swan and the quite experienced maker Jacob Saunders ( who normally comments very fastly any old instruments of eventually german origin ) with great local access - because of this I assume, you have chance of a real Kloz made by one of the important members of the family.

[jacobsaunders]

55 minutes ago, Danube Fiddler said:

the quite experienced maker Jacob Saunders ( who normally comments very fastly any old instruments of eventually german origin ) with great local Access 

I get bored of "which Klotz" threads, and would refer to many earlier answers.

[martin swan]

Just for clarification, Jacob is the person I would consult about a Mittenwald violin ... 

I think what he is saying, and what I would also say, is that this looks like a nice mid-late 18th century Mittenwald instrument, but without an original label and a comparable reference example in the Mittenwald museum, there is little point in speculating as to who made it.

I for one don't see anything that would really make me sit up - the authentic Kloz family violins I have seen have all been outstanding instruments.

[Blank face]

I actually can't tell anything particular by the given photos, and as long as there is a certificate and a label I'm curious if there's a chance it could be real (though this chance isn't really high, fwiw).

[martin swan]

8 minutes ago, Blank face said:

I actually can't tell anything particular by the given photos, and as long as there is a certificate and a label I'm curious if there's a chance it could be real (though this chance isn't really high, fwiw).

OTOH Joseph Chanot was very knowledgeable, and I have generally found his certificates stand the test of time. I assume he falls short of giving a name ...

[Danube Fiddler]

2 hours ago, martin swan said:

Just for clarification, Jacob is the person I would consult about a Mittenwald violin ... 

I think what he is saying, and what I would also say, is that this looks like a nice mid-late 18th century Mittenwald instrument, but without an original label and a comparable reference example in the Mittenwald museum, there is little point in speculating as to who made it.

I for one don't see anything that would really make me sit up - the authentic Kloz family violins I have seen have all been outstanding instruments.

As I yet have posted, in the Mittenwald-museum one can see a number of instruments of Kloz-familiy members ( I only can hope, that these all will be authentic ) of really widely differing quality. There are some really poor looking ones, especially regarding varnish-quality, much surpassed by the OP violin.

To get a fine certificate, Jacob Saunders eventually. is not well-known enough in the south-german area. I would prefer to get one of Benedek ( Munich ) , who wrote a standard-work about German-school violins, another adress could be Zunterer ( also Munich ), who at the moment is curator of the Mittenwald museum, if I remember right. I don´t know, whether one of the great experts like Beare writes about German violins - naturally this would be a much better certificate in practical concerns ( but may be even such experts eventually will ask some German experts before writing certificates ).

[Danube Fiddler]

3 hours ago, jacobsaunders said:

 and would refer to many earlier answers.

Which meaning this has in the case of the current OP-violin ? The usual scrap ? 

[reg]

Thank you all. The violin is at work so will try and answer questions on Monday and I shall send pics of the label and certificate. If necessary i could take it to Martin or even to Jacob

Jacob I have read all the threads which is really why I posted this! I don't make any pretence to be an expert but I have never seen anything quite like this

[martin swan]

1 hour ago, Danube Fiddler said:

As I yet have posted, in the Mittenwald-museum one can see a number of instruments of Kloz-familiy members ( I only can hope, that these all will be authentic ) of really widely differing quality. There are some really poor looking ones, especially regarding varnish-quality, much surpassed by the OP violin.

To get a fine certificate, Jacob Saunders eventually. is not well-known enough in the south-german area. I would prefer to get one of Benedek ( Munich ) , who wrote a standard-work about german-school violins, another adress could be Zunterer ( also Munich ), who at the moment is curator of the Mittenwald museum, if I remember right. I don´t know, whether one of the great experts like Beare write about German violins - naturally this would be a much better certificate in practical concerns ( but may be even such experts eventually will ask some German experts before writing certificates ).

We weren't talking about contemporary certificates. I would consult Jacob because his knowledge is second to none, but he doesn't write certificates

Benedek wrote the only modern work on Hungarian violins, not German (he is Hungarian). 

Beares and Hills wrote certificates for Kloz instruments - Hill certificates being generally very reliable. Charles Beare is definitely a high authority for Albani, I suppose for Kloz too. 

Just for clarification, J&A Beare still exist as a firm and are writing certificates yet they have no in-house expertise, having lost all their actual Beares.

When it comes to Kloz, Ben Schroeder is in my experience the most knowledgeable individual who also writes certificates which are taken seriously.

[martin swan]

1 minute ago, reg said:

Thank you all. The violin is at work so will try and answer questions on Monday and I shall send pics of the label and certificate. If necessary i could take it to Martin or even to Jacob

Jacob I have read all the threads which is really why I posted this! I don't make any pretence to be an expert but I have never seen anything quite like this

Can you tell us what the certificate says? also, what's the length of back?

[jacobsaunders]

43 minutes ago, Danube Fiddler said:

As I yet have posted, in the Mittenwald-museum one can see a number of instruments of Kloz-familiy members ( I only can hope, that these all will be authentic ) of really widely differing quality. There are some really poor looking ones, especially regarding varnish-quality, much surpassed by the OP violin.

To get a fine certificate, Jacob Saunders eventually. is not well-known enough in the south-german area. I would prefer to get one of Benedek ( Munich ) , who wrote a standard-work about German-school violins, another adress could be Zunterer ( also Munich ), who at the moment is curator of the Mittenwald museum, if I remember right. I don´t know, whether one of the great experts like Beare writes about German violins - naturally this would be a much better certificate in practical concerns ( but may be even such experts eventually will ask some German experts before writing certificates ).

Wolfgang Zunterer (an ex-boss of mine) is considered the leading expert on these Mittenwald violins. The Museum in Mittenwald, under his direction, has a wide range of reference examples that can be relied upon. Anyone else has more sense, unless the fiddle has an undisturbed original label. The OP didn’t ask for a certificate and will be happy to have a nice late 18^th C. Mittenwald violin.

[Danube Fiddler]

4 minutes ago, martin swan said:

Benedek wrote the only modern work on Hungarian violins, not German (he is Hungarian). 

The titel is as you write, but many/most of the referred makers are considered to be part of the German school, isn´t it ? And Benedeks shop is about 1 h to Mittenwald.

[jacobsaunders]

2 minutes ago, Danube Fiddler said:

The titel is as you write, but many/most of the referred makers are considered to be part of the German school, isn´t it ? And Benedeks shop is about 1 h to Mittenwald.

A curious point of view. I don't think many Hungarians would agree with you. Benedek would just run around to Zunterer with an old Mittenwald violin and ask.

[Danube Fiddler]

5 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

A curious point of view. I don't think many Hungarians would agree with you. Benedek would just run around to Zunterer with an old Mittenwald violin and ask.

May be you are right, I am not sure in school - separation. But how many, do you think, makers referred by Benedeks book, you also can find in Hammas book about German school ?

[martin swan]

36 minutes ago, Danube Fiddler said:

The titel is as you write, but many/most of the referred makers are considered to be part of the German school, isn´t it ? And Benedeks shop is about 1 h to Mittenwald.

Not by anyone I know ...

There is some commonality with Vienna, but Austria is not Germany.

What German school are you referring to anyway? Fuessen, Mittenwald, Vogtland, other ...?

[jacobsaunders]

Hamma included the whole K&K Monarchy in his "Deutsche Geigenbau" book. I don't know why.

[Blank face]

40 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

Hamma included the whole K&K Monarchy in his "Deutsche Geigenbau" book. I don't know why.

This is an "imperial attitude" due to historical reasons we don't need to go more into.

What reminds me most of Sebastian or his son Josef is the scroll (what's visible of it), so an original label referring to one of these could support the attribution. OTOH it's true that most of the Mittenwald makers of the assumed period had close working relations to each other, so an attribution by a single feature alone won't be reliable. These are the "earlier answers".

[martin swan]

To be honest the scroll is the thing I like least - super high forehead, kind of thick front to back, lacking accuracy and quite short ... but I'm not familiar with Josef Kloz' work.