1905 Violin Bow Ad

[jacobsaunders]

Every time, some liar tells me that Neusilber (nickel) mounted bows are just as expensive, it transpires that they are trying to sell me one.

Funny how nobody doubts that siver cutlery is much more expensive than EPNS, although the mecanical feeding of the face is identical.

[jacobsaunders]

Should anyone buy his/herself this book (highly recomended)

 http://www.holfter.com/Shop/main_bigware_34.php?items_id=305

They will see on page 11, a page of the Wurlitzer, Cincinnati catalogue of 1910, opened at page 385 with their Nürnberger bows. Amongst others one may read:

 

 

ALBERT NURENBURGER (without umlaut!) DOUBLE BASS BOWS

 

 

#3378-Pernambuco stick, new model, ebony frog, nickel mounted…$25

#3379-Pernambuco stick, new model, ebony frog, silver mounted…..$40

[shunkpenn]

12 hours ago, fiddlecollector said:

I wouldnt take much notice of the stamps on these bows in these types of wholesale catalogues, they mostly have nothing to do with what they are stamped.

It’s an interesting detail that the lower bowl of the “B” being smaller than the upper bowl in in the “Bausch”  stamp is similar to what we see on some of the bows that are out there today.  

[fiddlecollector]

Never noticed that before! 

Bausch and his two sons were all dead by 1874 ,so a 1905 catalogue wouldnt  be selling bows made by Bausch ,though im not an expert by any degree on German bows.

[Blank face]

Reg. Bausch family shop, even the Grünke book isn't really clear if Ludwig Bausch himself made bows in the Leipzig shop ever, but it's a well documented fact (by a personal letter) that he oredered bows from elsewhere, the best quality evidently made by Knopf family, but most probably others by different makers. The death of Heinrich Knopf is described as the "end of the classic Bausch bow".

In 1874 the business was taken over by Adolf Paulus (not to be confused with Otto) till it was closed in 1908. So it's obvious that a 1905 offered bow hasn't anything to do with Bausch.

 

[jacobsaunders]

13 minutes ago, Blank face said:

it's a well documented fact (by a personal letter) that he oredered bows from elsewhere, the best quality evidently made by Knopf family, but most probably others by different makers. 

 

I decrypted this letter here:

 

[Blank face]

The same source is quoting the 1872 report of the Gewerbekammer Plauen, which is the oldest source comparing bow prices I could find yet. Interesting that the most expensive gold mounted bow was 5 time of the best silver mounted. At least this seems to indicate that the prices were more determined by the quality of the fittings than of the stick alone.

It would be really interesting to find documented prices about bows, but also comparing silver and "Neusilber" from the so often mentioned early period after 1827. This would be IMO the only possibility to find out if they were really valued equally.

[jacobsaunders]

18 hours ago, martin swan said:

 ad

From "L'Archet" re Nicholas Lupot …

Should one read the relavant literature, rather than violin-making lore, one will discover that:

"After 1830...nickel silver prices had fallen to four shillings per POUND."

Which refutes ad absurdum the above Quote that "this new metal...was at least as expensive as silver at the time"

 

https://books.google.com/books?id=o7yJAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA98

 

An Encyclopedia of the History of Technology, p.98

edited by Ian McNeil

 

[Blank face]

Exactly what I had in mind. But unfortunately the link doesn't work?

[jacobsaunders]

5 minutes ago, Blank face said:

Exactly what I had in mind. But unfortunately the link doesn't work?

Funny, it works when I click on it

[Michael Appleman]

16 hours ago, martin swan said:

From "L'Archet" re Nicholas Lupot ...

François Lupot, the bowmaker, not Nicolas the violinmaker! Brothers who grew up together working with their dad in Orleans, but set up in seperate shops in Paris. In François' shop there would be a few assistants, like Fonclause and a certain Dminique Peccatte before he moved over to work for Vuillaume.

[Michael Appleman]

16 hours ago, Blank face said:

Yes, that's what actually is told everywhere as "oral history", but without hard prove I'd guess it's more a legend. Obviously all sources tell you that it was meant as being 1/6 of the silver price. So why should it be "as expensive as silver, if not more"?

You may well be right! I've never personally seen a nickel mounted Lupot, so I am just repeating what I've heard and read. I do concur that with the next generation of makers, nickel does seem reserved for lesser quality sticks, very often non-pernambuco, and I agree with Martin that while there are a few exceptions, the vast majority I've seen are not up to the level of pernambuco/silver bows by the same maker or shop. I've got one nickel/weird exotic hardwood Pajeot/Maire shop bow that is a good player, but every nickel/amourette Peccatte I've ever tried was not a bow I'd like to play on.

[fiddlecollector]

Heres a supposed nickel mounted Pajeot shop,ignore the button it looks later to me and silver.The stick is pernambuco.

 

[martin swan]

49 minutes ago, Michael Appleman said:

François Lupot, the bowmaker, not Nicolas the violinmaker! Brothers who grew up together working with their dad in Orleans, but set up in seperate shops in Paris. In François' shop there would be a few assistants, like Fonclause and a certain Dminique Peccatte before he moved over to work for Vuillaume.

Sorry - a moment’s inattention! I stand corrected ...

[Greg F.]

2 hours ago, jacobsaunders said:

Should one read the relavant literature, rather than violin-making lore, one will discover that:

"After 1830...nickel silver prices had fallen to four shillings per POUND."

Which refutes ad absurdum the above Quote that "this new metal...was at least as expensive as silver at the time"

 

https://books.google.com/books?id=o7yJAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA98

 

An Encyclopedia of the History of Technology, p.98

edited by Ian McNeil

 

Not exactly an "ad absurdum".  A back of the envelope calculation:  The same source notes that in 1824 nickel silver (an alloy often having about 20% silver) was being marketed for 3 thalers per pound.  It's a good guess that most of this price was from the nickel rather than the copper, so let's guesstimate that pure nickel came in at not much less than 15 thalers per pound.  How about we go with 14.  There are about 14.5 troy ounces in a pound.  A thaler had roughly as much silver as a US dollar of the time (maybe 10% more?).   A US silver dollar had roughly $1 worth of silver in it.  So nickel (in 1824) comes out to be about the same price as silver ($1 an ounce).  And maybe it still was in 1827?

[Greg F.]

3 hours ago, Blank face said:

Reg. Bausch family shop, even the Grünke book isn't really clear if Ludwig Bausch himself made bows in the Leipzig shop ever, but it's a well documented fact (by a personal letter) that he oredered bows from elsewhere, the best quality evidently made by Knopf family, but most probably others by different makers. The death of Heinrich Knopf is described as the "end of the classic Bausch bow".

In 1874 the business was taken over by Adolf Paulus (not to be confused with Otto) till it was closed in 1908. So it's obvious that a 1905 offered bow hasn't anything to do with Bausch.

 

This is an interesting bit from an 1892 catalog.  Note that both "imitation" and "genuine" Bausch bows are being offered.  IMO, a reasonable interpretation is that the "imitation" ones were anyone's bows that were simply stamped "Bausch" and the "genuine" ones came from the Bausch firm (whether a Bausch made them or not).  Or maybe it's all meaningless catalog hype?

[fiddlecollector]

Whos making these genuine Bausch bows in 1892??

[Blank face]

There could be "genuine" bows sold by the Paulus shop till 1908, but this doesn't answer the question who made them.

[jacobsaunders]

45 minutes ago, Greg F. said:

Not exactly an "ad absurdum".  A back of the envelope calculation:  The same source notes that in 1824 nickel silver (an alloy often having about 20% silver) was being marketed for 3 thalers per pound.  It's a good guess that most of this price was from the nickel rather than the copper, so let's guesstimate that pure nickel came in at not much less than 15 thalers per pound.  How about we go with 14.  There are about 14.5 troy ounces in a pound.  A thaler had roughly as much silver as a US dollar of the time (maybe 10% more?).   A US silver dollar had roughly $1 worth of silver in it.  So nickel (in 1824) comes out to be about the same price as silver ($1 an ounce).  And maybe it still was in 1827?

Neusilber, or Nickel Silver, Augentan etc. has no silver at all. The English recepie here is 18% Nickel, 55% Copper and 27% Zinc

[Greg F.]

2 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

Neusilber, or Nickel Silver, Augentan etc. has no silver at all. The English recepie here is 18% Nickel, 55% Copper and 27% Zinc

My mistake.  A typo.  It is meant to read "nickel silver (an alloy often having about 20% nickel)".  Otherwise my "calculation" would be meaningless.

[Greg F.]

14 minutes ago, Blank face said:

There could be "genuine" bows sold by the Paulus shop till 1908, but this doesn't answer the question who made them.

Exactly.

[jacobsaunders]

7 minutes ago, Greg F. said:

My mistake.  A typo.  It is meant to read "nickel silver (an alloy often having about 20% nickel)".  Otherwise my "calculation" would be meaningless.

As already established on the previous page, the Germans developed it to have a material to industrialy produce cutlery at one sixth of the price of silver. Perhaps you have a clean envelope?

[Bill Merkel]

Sheer luck it wasn't 20% lead.

[shunkpenn]

2 hours ago, Greg F. said:

Not exactly an "ad absurdum".  A back of the envelope calculation:  The same source notes that in 1824 nickel silver (an alloy often having about 20% silver) was being marketed for 3 thalers per pound.  It's a good guess that most of this price was from the nickel rather than the copper, so let's guesstimate that pure nickel came in at not much less than 15 thalers per pound.  How about we go with 14.  There are about 14.5 troy ounces in a pound.  A thaler had roughly as much silver as a US dollar of the time (maybe 10% more?).   A US silver dollar had roughly $1 worth of silver in it.  So nickel (in 1824) comes out to be about the same price as silver ($1 an ounce).  And maybe it still was in 1827?

Without silver mounted bows being hallmarked for silver purity content....isn't there a lot guess work involved in identifying pure silver hardware?  My guess is that low silver content is probably not uncommon in many of these bows...

[KALaBenne]

Thanks for posting this!  I have one of those imitation ivory frog bows except mine isn't marked and it's not even imitation snakewood, just brazilwood.