curious1

Glue for Tropics

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I'll avoid a direct recommendation here, but aren't gorillas found in the tropics?  :)

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1 minute ago, Violadamore said:

I'll avoid a direct recommendation here, but aren't gorillas found in the tropics?  :)

Yes, but I believe they are endangered.

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6 minutes ago, curious1 said:

Yes, but I believe they are endangered.

Depends on the species.  Some seem to be expanding.

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One problem with Gorilla glue (if you're even serious which maybe you aren't) is that it expands as it cures, so parts need to be clamped well or will push apart with foam in between.

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13 minutes ago, JacksonMaberry said:

I'd stick to hide. Fish/isinglass glue, maybe. 

I'm still experimenting with different stuff, as I get to live in tropical conditions for around four months every year.  My current hope is 500 gram hide glue, but the results aren't in yet.  This is one area where I will cut some corners on non-historical work, as a few weeks of 100F and 100% RH will destroy ordinary hide glue.  The major drawback to polyurethane glue is having to compensate for, or minimize, its tendency to expand while curing.  I wish I knew what some of the Chinese are using, as I've seen no joint failures on Chinese trade fiddles yet.

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8 minutes ago, bkwood said:

One problem with Gorilla glue (if you're even serious which maybe you aren't) is that it expands as it cures, so parts need to be clamped well or will push apart with foam in between.

You have to use it sparingly and carefully, and continually scrape the outside of the joint with a sharp plastic tool while it's setting.  Getting it to look right is a ticklish procedure.  I consider using it an extreme recourse for extreme conditions, not a panacea for gluing problems.

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13 minutes ago, Violadamore said:

I'm still experimenting with different stuff, as I get to live in tropical conditions for around four months every year.  My current hope is 500 gram hide glue, but the results aren't in yet.  This is one area where I will cut some corners on non-historical work, as a few weeks of 100F and 100% RH will destroy ordinary hide glue.  The major drawback to polyurethane glue is having to compensate for, or minimize, its tendency to expand while curing.  I wish I knew what some of the Chinese are using, as I've seen no joint failures on Chinese trade fiddles yet.

Interesting observation - I've yet to see one come to bits either. Field trip? 

I'm not particularly obsessed with using traditional methods, but I do worry about reversibility. Even using strong bone glue gets me worried! 

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Are there any new questions?

You can  fume hide glue with formaldehyde, but it is dangerous and it is fairly difficult to find concentrated formaldehyde without the proper connections.

I recently answered this question for a friend who has purchased a large boat and is going to St. Lucia. I sold him a Glasser CF fiddle with a glasser CF bow with Zarelon in it and a CF case.

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Gorilla glue, if one were to use it, uses a slight amount of moisture to go off. Once it's set it is impervious to water. I have used it a lot in exterior general construction, and occasionally cabinetry. I don't know what advantage it would have on a violin except for the noted high humidity regions. In those areas whatever else happened to the fiddle the glue joints would never fail.

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7 hours ago, bkwood said:

One problem with Gorilla glue (if you're even serious which maybe you aren't) is that it expands as it cures, so parts need to be clamped well or will push apart with foam in between.

The Gorilla tribe has a new version of a clear glue that doesn't foam or expand.

I use it for my plate center joints.

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Now ironically a little old now (1968-1976) but the classic book "The New Science of Strong Materials--or why you don't fall through the Floor" by J. E. Gordon ($21.85 at amazon)  has a thorough discussion of why wood is such a good structural material but also discusses its moisture and glue problems.

Hint--Wood airplanes in the tropics was a more serious problem than wood violins in the tropics. 

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5 hours ago, Marty Kasprzyk said:

The Gorilla tribe has a new version of a clear glue that doesn't foam or expand.

I use it for my plate center joints.

Do you have any worries about the longevity of your joints? (100+ years)

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10 hours ago, Michael Szyper said:

Do you have any worries about the longevity of your joints? (100+ years)

No,

I'm 73 years old,  nobody uses my instruments,  and climate change will end civilization in twelve years anyway.

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Curious,

Have you actually had problems with this or are you just doing due diligence?

 

 

Viola,

You say a few weeks of such conditions will destroy hide glue so I ask the same question. Have you experienced this yourself? Exactly what happened? 

 

I would say say the only option would have to be treated hide glue or casein since gorilla glue on violins is an abomination unto the lord.

 

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29 minutes ago, nathan slobodkin said:

Curious,

Have you actually had problems with this or are you just doing due diligence?

 

 

Viola,

You say a few weeks of such conditions will destroy hide glue so I ask the same question. Have you experienced this yourself? Exactly what happened? 

 

I would say say the only option would have to be treated hide glue or casein since gorilla glue on violins is an abomination unto the lord.

 

Yup, several times.  Usually, the upper block comes loose, hopefully while hanging on the wall, but I got beaned by a scroll once while playing.  Talk about "shock and awe"..... :lol:

Blasphemy will get you nowhere with me.  Anyway, necessity is a morally gray area, and God's mercy is infinite.  :)

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5 hours ago, Marty Kasprzyk said:

No,

I'm 73 years old,  nobody uses my instruments,  and climate change will end civilization in twelve years anyway.

That's the spirit Marty!

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To give specific answers, I'd need to have specific applications....but, in rare cases, depending, "hybrid" methods of gluing can be done where it's more in the how than the what. 

One can do glue up, with some difficulty using 2 different types of glue, in this case "strong hide" with incremental dabs of epoxy.

The idea being that if the epoxy dabs are strategically applied correctly in the correct areas in conjunction with hide glue so as to fortify. or act as an "unmeltable" "Clamp"that holds the hide joint in extreme prolonged conditions, with the hope that stability will occur at some point where the hide glue will re-solidify and act as "glue" again...YET have these very tiny pin drops of epoxy be tiny enough to be fractured or scored in order to be separated. 

For example a small dab of slowset epoxy can be applied to each block, and then hide glue applied to the rest and or around the epoxy blobs, somewhat accounting for the "squish" factor, and for if any reason the hide joints fail,  the top{for example} will stay put, and then some boiling water can be brushed in/onto the open seem, gently clamped, and everything is ok again if done in stable conditions.

I don't really recommend this too much, it is a pain to do, work with 2 glues at the same time, BUT if you are talking about plates popping off, this does make it so alignment generally stays put and any open seems are easily glued by reactivating the glue with hot water, and if the epoxy is used sparingly as "blobs" they can be "tapped" apart generally as long as they are not too big, ie. small glue foot print

I would add that Carlo lives on a boat, currently somewhere in Grenada, his guitar is primarily all hide glue, and yes it has had "plate pop" before, but as I have instructed him on how to fix it{hot water clamps} he has always been able to fix any "plate" pop issues so far , as I really design it to do that rather than swell and explode.

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On 2/12/2019 at 5:13 PM, Marty Kasprzyk said:

No,

I'm 73 years old,  nobody uses my instruments,  and climate change will end civilization in twelve years anyway.

Oh dear, that's a sad prognosis!

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