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Greg F.

Old bow lapping

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Is old lapping of any use in id'ing bow origin?  This one has a German looking adjuster (no pins that I can see) and ferrule (if I've followed previous discussions correctly), but the octagonal part of the stick extends beyond the lengthy lapping and the slide is neatly pinned.  Any ideas? 

img478.thumb.jpg.a33d1e3fb01bc4e1cb4335aa3c168470.jpg

 

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The base of the adjuster is rounded, which I think indicates German. The rounded threads on the adjuster shaft look exactly like those on my Schuster bow so I’m thinking it’s German, but I know absolutely nothing and someone is going to come along behind me and laugh and point and then tell you what it really is.

The under slide is apparently nickel, but the rest of the metal looks like it is sterling silver. I’m not sure what that means, in the event I am correct.

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1 hour ago, PhilipKT said:

The base of the adjuster is rounded, which I think indicates German. The rounded threads on the adjuster shaft look exactly like those on my Schuster bow so I’m thinking it’s German, but I know absolutely nothing and someone is going to come along behind me and laugh and point and then tell you what it really is.

The under slide is apparently nickel, but the rest of the metal looks like it is sterling silver. I’m not sure what that means, in the event I am correct.

Thanks for your input.  I'm just trying to learn more about old bows.

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On 2/3/2019 at 3:36 PM, Greg F. said:

I vaguely recall discussion about the width of the eye screw mortice often being different for bows of different origin.  Is this true?

That's a very general rule - neatly german made bows have often a mortice of exactly the same width as the facette, french often wider, but there are many exceptions.

The long octogonal section at otherwise round sticks is a french feature, but very early copied in Markneukirche bows, too, as well as the tapered pearl slide. Like often, many boxes to tick.;)

The OP bow looks IMO like a well made Markneukirchen made bow roughly 2nd half of or late 19th century, fully silver mounted (incl. underslide). Usually it's hard to pin it down to a particular maker, because there were so many.

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1 hour ago, Blank face said:

That's a very general rule - neatly german made bows 

The OP bow looks IMO like a well made Markneukirchen made bow roughly 2nd half of or late 19th century, fully silver mounted (incl. underslide). Usually it's hard to pin it down to a particular maker, because there were so many.

Are you sure the under slide is also silver? It looks as if it is tarnished in the way that nickel would tarnish, the rest of the metal looks like silver and it is merely oxidized, but this under slide looks different

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The green-greyish tarnishing at the silver underslides is usually caused by the eyelet, and some rust of the iron thread. The deep black colour at the edges here seems to indicate that the slide is silver, too, as I would expect it usually.

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30 minutes ago, Blank face said:

The green-greyish tarnishing at the silver underslides is usually caused by the eyelet, and some rust of the iron thread. The deep black colour at the edges here seems to indicate that the slide is silver, too, as I would expect it usually.

Ok, I see what you mean, thanks.

two more questions:

1) You spoke of the tapering of the slide. Are you sure it’s tapered? It looks like a perfect rectangle to me.

2) You say Markneukirchen. What do you see that indicates that location? I thought it was German, but I don’t know how to narrow it down further.

thank you!

And to Greg: please get the bow fixed up and polished and share “after” photos, including how much it weighs? And don’t worry about replacing the lapping: if it is tinsel it’s probably ruined anyway.

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14 minutes ago, fiddlecollector said:

I wouldnt change the lapping as it looks in quite good condition.

 OK, Greg, what he said. Clean up the bow but don’t change the lapping. Changing the lapping  on a bow doesn’t change the collector value, I do not think, but if he says it’s not necessary, he’s correct.

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56 minutes ago, PhilipKT said:

two more questions:

1) You spoke of the tapering of the slide. Are you sure it’s tapered? It looks like a perfect rectangle to me.

2) You say Markneukirchen. What do you see that indicates that location? I thought it was German, but I don’t know how to narrow it down further.

thank you!

1) Beside that it looks at my screen slightly tapered, that's another general statement, a tapered pearl slide is widely seen as "french".

2.) You're right so far that it could be from Klingenthal, Brünndobra or another Vogtland village also, but the stle is very clear. There wasn't any other german bow making at the period than there since the Mittenwald bow makers gave up due to the Vogtland competition. The very few bow makers from Knopf or Herrmann family working in Dresden or Berlin are neglectible here and also from the Markneukirchen school. The rest was Vogtland made stuff with a dealer's stamp, just as nearly all the Bausch Leipzig branded bows.

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Thanks for all the comments.  I plan to rehair it but will leave the lapping alone as this looks like it might be original (but who knows and it certainly gives the bow "character").   I will do a minimum of cleaning and might replace the thumb leather (or I might not, I have plenty of bows for playing).  The most "serious" issue is that the tip of the tip plate is missing.  I really would rather not replace the entire plate.  Suggestions?

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1 hour ago, Greg F. said:

Thanks for all the comments.  I plan to rehair it but will leave the lapping alone as this looks like it might be original (but who knows and it certainly gives the bow "character").   I will do a minimum of cleaning and might replace the thumb leather (or I might not, I have plenty of bows for playing).  The most "serious" issue is that the tip of the tip plate is missing.  I really would rather not replace the entire plate.  Suggestions?

If you are referring to the ivory face plate, that can easily be replaced and it doesn’t affect the value of the boat, you could also have just the tip replaced, but that frequently falls off.. Minded if you do have the I replaced it will be difficult to get Ivory, because of the preservation efforts. You can get bone, or mastodon ivory(I find it quite humorous that ivory from an animal that has been extinct for 30,000 years is more easily obtained then modern ivory, but politics is strange)

 This is a silly question but is it a violin bow?

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On 2/5/2019 at 12:20 PM, PhilipKT said:

If you are referring to the ivory face plate, that can easily be replaced and it doesn’t affect the value of the boat, you could also have just the tip replaced, but that frequently falls off.. Minded if you do have the I replaced it will be difficult to get Ivory, because of the preservation efforts. You can get bone, or mastodon ivory(I find it quite humorous that ivory from an animal that has been extinct for 30,000 years is more easily obtained then modern ivory, but politics is strange)

 This is a silly question but is it a violin bow?

As is it weighs 52 g.  So with hair it should come in at around 56-57 g.  A little light but still in the range for a violin bow.

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54 minutes ago, Greg F. said:

As is it weighs 52 g.  So with hair it should come in at around 56-57 g.  A little light but still in the range for a violin bow.

Yes that’s definitely a violin bow, and if the stick is stiff enough, that’s not a bad weight. There’s supposedly some kind of ratio of stiffness and flexibility to weight, But 57 is fine with the right wood.

Please share photographs when it’s all cleaned up and ready to go. I for one would love to see it

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On 2/5/2019 at 5:09 PM, PhilipKT said:

 Changing the lapping  on a bow doesn’t change the collector value, I do not think 

Really not the case. An original lapping is kind of essential for the "collector" market, and it's a big plus on any bow, assuming it's usable and in good condition.

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2 hours ago, martin swan said:

Really not the case. An original lapping is kind of essential for the "collector" market, and it's a big plus on any bow, assuming it's usable and in good condition.

Thank you very much for that correction! I won’t forget.

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3 hours ago, martin swan said:

Really not the case. An original lapping is kind of essential for the "collector" market, and it's a big plus on any bow, assuming it's usable and in good condition.

Martin,

How would you recommend cleaning the lapping on this bow?  I don't want to go too crazy but it could use a little.

Greg

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Dont know about martin but i would just try a little mineral spirit (not alcohol) and see if it works, But only gently as silk /tinsel is very fragile stuff. Dont use any type of metal polish as alot of the tinsel covering on the these type of threads are silver plated copper ,metal polish will quickly remove the plating and leave it copper coloured which you dont want.

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20 minutes ago, fiddlecollector said:

Dont know about martin but i would just try a little mineral spirit (not alcohol) and see if it works, But only gently as silk /tinsel is very fragile stuff. Dont use any type of metal polish as alot of the tinsel covering on the these type of threads are silver plated copper ,metal polish will quickly remove the plating and leave it copper coloured which you dont want.

Thanks

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