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Rue

So...why didn't the Germans keep up with the Italians?

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23 hours ago, Violadamore said:

[Mutters something about "...half a league onward"]  Oh dear heavens!  What a remarkable farrago of noble sentiments and romantic hogwash.  "[A]rtistic bravery"!   Somehow I get an impression of you charging a small horde of tubby critics with a varnish brush en garde:lol::P

The varnish on the tip of the brush is dry too!

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22 hours ago, David Beard said:

Jezzupe--

Congrats with those Emmys! Great to hear that.

I take your point about a general cultural pressure to follow norms.   But you can also break norms by too literally pursuing making as the old guys did.  That is not actually the current standard.

Vuillaume much more accurately represents the norm for modern building: a cleaned up, modern methods bench copy of a classical instrument. 

The norm is not to revive making as they did, but to make a copy by modernized means, implying that your instruments captures some sort of balance between advantages of the old models, scientific understanding, and modernized precision.

In truth, the current norms are more enemy than friend if you set about to actually revive an old style making.

Thanks, I suppose, right or wrong, we all have our world views about things.

Perhaps I am wrong, in my view, but to me this very much reminds me of a situation where if we lived in a world that stopped writing anything other than music that was composed in the style of Mozart. As if Mozart came along, and that music was so good that it was decided by the "group" that Mozart was it. We could write anything we wanted {our interpretation within the style} but the overall style and feel must be Mozartean. 

As the group becomes more galvanized around this style , over time not only does the mere thought of writing anything other than Mozarteam music become near blasphemy , but also all the reasons why we should not do anything different become more galvanized, and in time an unwritten law of the land becomes established and a "new" tradition is born, and from tradition springs forth fear based on group think and the ramifications of going against the group....depending on the tradition we get anywhere from ridicule, to being enslaved, to being shoved in an oven and incinerated.

Now fortunately, for now, I've only had to deal with the ridicule,which there was lots of. But as time has gone by it's subsided some. 

I've never really wanted to change any ones mind, never made any claims about "superiority",and certainly have nothing but admiration for people who make or are only interested in tradition style instruments...

I just wanted to re-imagine what is traditional , doing just that, with my own imagination. I don't claim to do anything revolutionary , the only thing I think I've done is create my own style in that regardless if it's a guitar or a violin that it's pretty obvious that it was made by me.

That's all, that's what I wanted to do. Maybe like Chanot, I don't think he made any great tonal achievements, but when you look at his work, you know its his. Thats all I wanted to do, well that and make great sounding instrument, or the best I could.

I just think lots gets missed out on when people get stuck it certain feedback loops and that if for some reason tomorrow, every luthier struck out on their own, and decided to reimagine instruments in their own image using their own imagination with in the boundaries of ergonomics, functionality and tone, that maybe, just maybe something actually concrete related to "tone" may come from it. There could be a shape,material,design or combination  of those that becomes something revolutionary, and if that does in fact exist, with fewer people experimenting outside the box it just seems like it takes longer to find that, if "it" does exist.

Anyways, back to the previously scheduled program of "Old dead Italian guys and your bank account, making Stradivarius work for you!" :lol:

 

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On 2/6/2019 at 3:19 PM, David Beard said:

Seems like you're succeeding in what you set out to do. 

:)

thanks man! and....

boom!

 

lili hydn.JPG

liligrammy.jpg

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43 minutes ago, jezzupe said:

thanks man! and....

boom!

 

lili hydn.JPG

liligrammy.jpg

I often wonder whether my own sense of preference is based on thinking the traditional is the best, my own personal nature, or something else. Your violin is obviously successful, and I applaud you for having made it, but it is not to my taste. Having said that, I would really like to play one of your cellos one of these days.

Continuing the composer analogy, Strad can be compared easily not to Mozart or-especially-Haydn, but to Beethoven,who stopped experimenting his entire life. The distance between Beethoven’s first symphony and his last symphony might well be the greatest distance In musical history. Just as large, the difference between Strad’s first violin and his best violin.

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25 minutes ago, PhilipKT said:

I often wonder whether my own sense of preference is based on thinking the traditional is the best, my own personal nature, or something else. Your violin is obviously successful, and I applaud you for having made it, but it is not to my taste. Having said that, I would really like to play one of your cellos one of these days.

Continuing the composer analogy, Strad can be compared easily not to Mozart or-especially-Haydn, but to Beethoven,who stopped experimenting his entire life. The distance between Beethoven’s first symphony and his last symphony might well be the greatest distance In musical history. Just as large, the difference between Strad’s first violin and his best violin.

Well, I'm sure I'm not everyones cup of tea and do paint myself as the "anti traditionalist" but I think in simple terms I just try to make instruments that sound like what you would expect to hear from that type of instrument but come in a different package that is recognizable as my own... nothing special really, other than it takes a little more "guts" I think.

I'm quite sure that every competent builder could do their own version of what I am doing, but I'm also quite sure we know the reasons why they don't.... and in no way shape or form is it a criticism of you for me to say that your post and its "psychology" reveals the reason.

I do know that when "we" anyone, see a familiar object that has a strikingly different visual representation than what we are used to seeing, that we get a pretty cut a dry response, where people either love it, or they hate it, or well maybe it's just kinda "meh'' 

anyways, well someday hopefully you can play one of my cellos, and ya, they thought it was cause he was going deaf,:lol:

 

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...I like it all - the traditional and the non-traditional. :wub:  But since I can't have it all, I tend to opt for what's traditional...:ph34r:

But my eye is always drawn to the 'different'.  I don't know that I'd be comfortable out in public if my only instrument was 'really different' - I think you need to be a top-notch player to carry that off, but I'd be fine with subtle differences - I actually wish more makers would add those little differences - like Sam with his wings, or Anne Cole, who does the little whimsical carvings on the back or on the button, ...etc.

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Just now, David Burgess said:

Is that a human or a mermaid?  ;)

:mellow:

You really need to get out of the shop more...

 

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10 minutes ago, Rue said:

:mellow:

You really need to get out of the shop more...

 

Ocean access isn't easy, where I live. The Great Lakes are not high on the list for mermaid sightings....

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1 hour ago, jezzupe said:

. and in no way shape or form is it a criticism of you for me to say that your post and its "psychology" reveals the reason.

Oh yes I understand completely, and I think you are correct. It is difficult for something that is too different to gain wide acceptance. I don’t know whether the Chanot cellos were better or not, but the reason they didn’t catch on had nothing to do with playing quality.

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19 minutes ago, PhilipKT said:

Oh yes I understand completely, and I think you are correct. It is difficult for something that is too different to gain wide acceptance. I don’t know whether the Chanot cellos were better or not, but the reason they didn’t catch on had nothing to do with playing quality.

I can't really speak for the 'cellos, but the violins aren't really anything to shout about. About what you get with oversize contemporary Mirecourt "traditional" shaped violins, hooty and honky, kind of like mediocre small violas strung up as violins. Think of 365mm Nicolas'. Add to that guitar style string stops that pull off the body, edge seams and guitar style binding that comes loose and can't be properly glued back, and backwards scrolls that don't fit in traditional cases, and you finish with a neat looking wall hanging.

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Well, again I think chanot was revolutionary only in that he tried something different, I don't really agree with the "science" nor the results, but always loved the look and the courage to do something different. I do try to stick to "what works" in many aspects related to making something sound good if I can.

And by no means is this Lili's number 1 instrument that she plays, but I'm just glad she has it and seems to like it

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6 minutes ago, jezzupe said:

Well, again I think chanot was revolutionary only in that he tried something different, I don't really agree with the "science" nor the results, but always loved the look and the courage to do something different. I do try to stick to "what works" in many aspects related to making something sound good if I can.

And by no means is this Lili's number 1 instrument that she plays, but I'm just glad she has it and seems to like it

 I am very happy he tried something different. One of the glories of the Stradivarius is that everything he tried, even if it didn’t work, resulted an excellent instrument regardless.

We have to have people who try new things, even if those new things don’t work. I despise the Second Viennese school, And there’s a reason their music rarely gets played, but I’m glad it exists.

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I live in Texas, where Bodark ( B’ois d’arc) is a very common wood, and very beautiful, the color is a deep orange red. The wood is extremely hard to work, one of the hardest of the hardwoods, but I have often wondered if anybody has ever ventured a Cello back out of Bodark?

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32 minutes ago, jezzupe said:

Well, again I think chanot was revolutionary only in that he tried something different, I don't really agree with the "science" nor the results, but always loved the look and the courage to do something different. I do try to stick to "what works" in many aspects related to making something sound good if I can.

And by no means is this Lili's number 1 instrument that she plays, but I'm just glad she has it and seems to like it

I think it's worth pointing out that François Chanot wasn't a violin maker himself. He was from a violin making family form Mirecourt, but he went to study at the then newly created super engineering school in Paris and set about trying to "rationalize" and "modernize" violin making by cutting away the traditional "mythology" and trying to make superior violins through science. His first prototypes were made by his relative (can't remember if they were brothers or cousins) George Chanot and a certain JB Vuillaume with whom they'd grown up back in Mirecourt. Those violins got rave reviews when they first came out (but so did Savart's trpaezoidal flat violins) but that was a time when new fangled patented things were all the rage. Most of the production was then carried out by the workshops in Mirecourt. If one takes a step back, what Chanot mostly did was try to apply guitar-making techniques to violin making, as guitars were a hot new item in the early 19th century and the Mirecourt workshops were cranking them out faster and cheaper than violins.

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1 hour ago, PhilipKT said:

I live in Texas, where Bodark ( B’ois d’arc) is a very common wood, and very beautiful, the color is a deep orange red. The wood is extremely hard to work, one of the hardest of the hardwoods, but I have often wondered if anybody has ever ventured a Cello back out of Bodark?

Bois d'arc is, perhaps unsurprisingly, excellent for making bows for archery. I wouldn't be surprised at all if a skilled archetier could make fantastic musical bows out of the stuff. Bodark is better known as Osage Orange outside the great state of Texas.

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2 hours ago, Michael Appleman said:

I can't really speak for the 'cellos, but the violins aren't really anything to shout about. About what you get with oversize contemporary Mirecourt "traditional" shaped violins, hooty and honky, kind of like mediocre small violas strung up as violins.

I have one of these, which is currently out of action because of a a suspected detached bass bar.

My memories of its sound when it was last working (3 years ago) was of a very pleasant tone. Maybe mine is an exception to the rule, but I would dearly love to get it working again. Alas, the cost of repair would far exceed its value.

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6 hours ago, Delabo said:

I have one of these, which is currently out of action because of a a suspected detached bass bar.

My memories of its sound when it was last working (3 years ago) was of a very pleasant tone. Maybe mine is an exception to the rule, but I would dearly love to get it working again. Alas, the cost of repair would far exceed its value.

I may have been overly dismissive about playing qualities in my first post about Chanot type violins. I went on a serious hunt for an early Vuillaume or G. Chanot made one some 25 years ago, and examined 30-40 of them over a couple of years. Of the playable ones I saw, there were nasty, harsh sounding ones, but the better ones were quite pleasant to play. Overall, they were certainly not worse than contemporary Mirecourt oversize violins, like large Nicolas' or Maggini model violins. I never did find one I could reliably attribute to G. Chanot or Vuillaume, and I never found one that I wanted to use professionally, as even the best ones were too dark and bland for my taste. At the time I was sitting on the first stand in the Lyon Opera Orchestra, and was hoping to find one to play at work and freak out the conductors...

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3 hours ago, Michael Appleman said:

 and I never found one that I wanted to use professionally, as even the best ones were too dark and bland for my taste. 

I have significantly less experience of these violins but I also thought the good ones pleasant but dull, also lacking in any high frequency content or complexity ...

As we are discussing with hilarious bampot "reguz" over on a parallel thread, arching and sound are indivisible.

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3 hours ago, Michael Appleman said:

I may have been overly dismissive about playing qualities in my first post about Chanot type violins. I went on a serious hunt for an early Vuillaume or G. Chanot made one some 25 years ago, and examined 30-40 of them over a couple of years. Of the playable ones I saw, there were nasty, harsh sounding ones, but the better ones were quite pleasant to play. Overall, they were certainly not worse than contemporary Mirecourt oversize violins, like large Nicolas' or Maggini model violins. I never did find one I could reliably attribute to G. Chanot or Vuillaume, and I never found one that I wanted to use professionally, as even the best ones were too dark and bland for my taste. At the time I was sitting on the first stand in the Lyon Opera Orchestra, and was hoping to find one to play at work and freak out the conductors...

My Chanot style violin is fire branded "Maline", whom I assume was one of many Mirecourt outworkers that Chanot used to build his violins.

It seems that these violins are more abundant in France than the UK judging by your managing to find 30-40 of them. Thank you for this additional interesting insight into there production. I was not suggesting that my violin would be up to professional orchestral work, but only that it sounded much nicer than a cheap Saxon violin to my non professional ears.

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