PEGS - Are the collars purely decorative?


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1 hour ago, GlennYorkPA said:

I have long thought that pegs today are much more sticky outy than they used to be.

Images of early instruments show the pegs closer to the peg box and I'm thinking the collar butted up against the outer wall of the box and provided extra friction to prevent slipping. 

Glenn

Painter renditions of instruments can get a lot horribly wrong. Check out the angle of the ff holes in that painting, for instance. Perhaps their "model" violin really had something like that ff-hole angle, and peg rings up against the pegbox wall, but if it did, it wouldn't have been a "player".

1 hour ago, Brad Dorsey said:

I think that your suggestion would be more likely to cause slipping -- by preventing the pegs from being pushed in farther when necessary.

Agreed.

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Yeah artist renditions of the Renaissance age tend to be very wacky. The instrument usually wasn't the focus in the work and thus not much time was spent constructing and rendering it within the image. Plus, I'm not so sure if perspective drawing was huge back then either, so the proportions were usually all over the place. I kind of like it, though. 

Also the inner violin nerd in me really likes it when the artist gets it all right. 

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2 minutes ago, Michael Appleman said:

And please let's not infer from a painting like this that all violinists back then used tiny bows holding them on the hair and played on the G string with their thumbs! It's a model holding a prop in a painter's studio! 

...changes bow hold and hand position back to "normal" :mellow:...

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2 minutes ago, Rue said:

...changes bow hold and hand position back to "normal" :mellow:...

Of course if it works for you, by all means go on! Especially if you have a left hand with proportions like the one the painter invented...look where the thumb base joint is compared to the knuckles! That's not a human hand, it's an orangutan foot!

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I am not a violinist but while some details of the painting are odd - the fingerboard perspective, the highlighted part of the left thumb below the joint (could this be a retouch?) the tiny pegs and the angle of the f holes, many features seem very realistic and conform to other comparative Low-Countries pictures from the early 17th century. The left thumb wrapped round the neck seems a common and comfortable of supporting the instrument with its  thick neck. It is the 2nd string that is being played so the thumb is only a support. The fingers of the left hand are spaced in a way that shows the painter knew at least something about violin playing. The length of bow seems typical and just the sort of thing that is found most successful in earlier 17th century music as played today. Also the right hand bow-hold looks convincing and comfortable. From memory pictures of this period show this type of hold far more frequently, even in italy, than the one where the thumb is placed on the stick although there are of course plenty of those as well. So while 1 picture on its own doesn't say much, the summation of a comprehensive iconography of particular regions and dates  remains very valuable in establishing styles of instrument fittings and geometry and also of playing techniques. 

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3 hours ago, Wood Butcher said:

No. Old scrolls do not show evidence of the peg collars grinding into the sides of the pegbox

I haven't been able to examine any scrolls earlier than 18thC but you could be right. It's speculation on my part based on several of these 16th-17thC paintings coupled with the observation that modern violin heads don't fit into early cases because the pegs stick out too much.

Glenn

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31 minutes ago, GlennYorkPA said:

I haven't been able to examine any scrolls earlier than 18thC but you could be right. It's speculation on my part based on several of these 16th-17thC paintings coupled with the observation that modern violin heads don't fit into early cases because the pegs stick out too much.

Glenn

Glenn,  what have your smallest inside  width dimensions  been in the scroll region?

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4 hours ago, David Burgess said:

Painter renditions of instruments can get a lot horribly wrong. Check out the angle of the ff holes in that painting, for instance.

The humans are kind of monstrosities too if you look at them literally.  Even this painting from the Dutch Golden Age.

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2 hours ago, Rue said:

I have taken them to task already...

:ph34r:

Yup, you started a magnificent and memorable five-page party at Infeld's expense.  Many a bucket of brilliance was flung.  Everybody should go read (or re-read) it.  :lol:

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1 hour ago, David Burgess said:

Glenn,  what have your smallest inside  width dimensions  been in the scroll region?

David,

I tried to attach pictures of a 17thC Italian double case but I'm having trouble loading the pictures.

In answer to your question, 

I date the case to c. 1690 - 1730, Italy, and the width of the recess for the scroll is 70mm where the D/E pegs would go, that's about 2 3/4". Furthermore, there isn't any evidence of abrasion from wide pegs on the suede walls of the recesses. So, while agreeing that the peg collars probably didn't rub against the peg box walls, there couldn't have been much clearance. And trying to accommodate a modern peg installation is like an ugly sister attempting to try on one of Cinderella's glass slippers. It just won't fit.

Glenn

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3 hours ago, Nick Allen said:

It can't be worse than this, though...

Thomastik PI Ad 2015.jpg

Wow.  I can almost understand when an ad is just using a violin as prop to advertise something outside music.   But this is aimed at string players, and put forward by an insider company.  Who said okay to this ad?

Just amazing.

 

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Glenn, I think one factor is that most of the very old pegs were made from fruitwood and pretty soft compared to later pegs so they worked their way in  and were cut off or not. . I don't know about the case measurements and I do think the pegs were fitted closer but many of the older pegs show much of the peg wear working up the shaft and a good bit protruding untill they were replaced. Here are some photos, they vary quite a bit and obviously some are not violin pegs.

old pegs1.jpg

piccolo pegs.jpg

Galpinpegscan.jpg

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