Hardanger fdl

[catt]

Greetings.  I finally managed to obtain a hardanger (made a few states away from me in North America) a few days ago.  It sounds great - really sparkling.

Trouble is, it's very different from std. fiddle - 30 cm, flat fingerboard, (two) gut strings...when I pick up a std fiddle now it feels like a viola! 

[catt]

I've been playing for a few years now, and my biggest impediment is breaking gut strings with all the frequent tuning modulations.  It seems the only way to pursue hdgfl seriously is to obtain another fiddle.

With this ever-present glut of Chinese hdgfl on ebay, surely folks have tried these.  Can anyone share experiences as to the viability of these MIC hdgfls?

[Brad Dorsey]

A friend of mine bought a new Chinese hardanger.  I didn’t try playing it, but my visual impression was that it is well made and of a quality comparable to decent-quality modern Chinese violins that I have handled.  By “decent quality,” I mean similar to basic Eastman instruments and much better than cheap Skylarks and Cremonas.  I think he paid around $600 for it.

[martin swan]

There is no greater secret to making a hardanger than to making a regular violin. An inexpensive Chinese hardanger should therefore be every bit as good as an inexpensive Chinese violin

[catt]

Many thanks

[Cerulean5346]

 

I own both an antique Norwegian-made Hardanger fiddle (c. 1910) and a newer Chinese-made Hardanger fiddle.  Both have nine strings.  The main difference is that the Chinese instrument is longer and heavier, making it uncomfortable to play.  The Chinese instrument seems louder, possibly because the longer string length results in higher string tension.

I believe that all Chinese Hardanger fiddles are made in the Song Family workshop in Hengshui, Hebei Province.  Therefore, they would basically be the same except for differences in ornamentation.

With the chinrests removed, the Norwegian instrument weighs 396 grams and the Chinese instrument weighs 537 grams – 35% more.  For reference, my regular violins weigh between 403 and 461 grams, also without chinrests.  The Norwegian Hardanger is 638 mm long and the Chinese Hardanger is 683 mm.  The vibrating string length is 330 mm for the Chinese instrument and 303 mm for the Norwegian.

The vibrating string length and the curvature of the fingerboard on the Chinese instrument are the same as a violin.  If you already play the violin, that might seem like an advantage until you pick it up.  The Chinese Hardanger feels heavy and unbalanced.  After a few minutes of trying to play it, I usually get tired and move on to something else.

In contrast, the Norwegian Hardanger is light, comfortable, and just feels right.  You can easily play it for hours.  The shorter neck, flatter fingerboard, and wider string spacing make the instrument specifically adapted to Norwegian folk music, which involves a lot of double-stops, trills, hammer-ons and double-string string crossings.   This is especially true if you hold it in the traditional style with a bent wrist and the upper bout supported on the heel of the palm.

Knowing what I know now, I would not buy a Chinese Hardanger again, at least until they have redesigned it to be more in line with traditional Norwegian specifications.

[catt]

Thank you Cerulean.  My current hdgfl is very lightweight with a flat fingerboard - i play in the 'trad style' position you mention.  I don't think I would get along well at all with the MIC instrument as you describe - I would want a flatter fingerboard (not to mention a lighter weight).  Many thanks.  

[Cerulean5346]

On 4/21/2023 at 10:08 AM, catt said:

I've been playing for a few years now, and my biggest impediment is breaking gut strings with all the frequent tuning modulations. 

If your strings are breaking prematurely, you might want to work with your luthier to address that problem directly. Common causes of broken strings include an improperly cut nut, lack of graphite lubrication at the nut and bridge, sharp fingernails, and not wiping the strings off after each playing session.  Gut strings are inherently elastic and tend to be more tolerant of cross tuning than synthetic strings, which might be why Hardanger fiddle players never switched over to synthetic!

Wiping bare gut strings along their entire length with sweet almond oil is supposed to extend string life.  I do this every week or two.  Sweet almond oil can sometimes be found at drug stores beside the essential oils.  Make sure that you clean off all the residue when you are finished and don’t allow any to get onto your bow hair.  It is better to do this after you are done playing for the day.

You might also experiment with different strings.  If you are having problems with the Pirastro Hardanger Fidel set, you might try the Rudi Fanitullen set, or vice versa.  If the close-wound D string is breaking, you could try the loose-wound version.  The D’Addario Pro-Arté synthetic D string is supposed to be a workable substitute for the Hf gut G and is quite a bit less expensive.  I have been using a Gamut Academie 0.68 mm plain gut as the A string and a Gamut 0.94 mm gimped gut as the D with good results.

Hf specialists who regularly post on MN include @Anders Buen, @Salve Håkedal, and @ezh (David Golber).  They might have other ideas.  To get advice from other specialists, you could try asking this question on the Hardanger Fiddle Association of America Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/21061116655   I’m only a hobbyist, so take anything I say with a grain of salt.

Best of luck!

 

[Salve Håkedal]

I have zero experience with chinese hardangerfiddles. Those that I've seen on pictures seems terrible uninformed about the norwegian tradition!

What Cerulean writes about norwegian hardangerfiddles makes good sense to me.

I don't quite agree with Martin ... setting up a hardangerfiddle , for a player in solid tradition, at least, is drastically different from setting up a violin. The traditional playing technique is very different. It's not a given that even a top class straight violin maker would do it properly.

(Maybe Martin was not thinking about the the setup, though. Anyway, I suspect that chinese makers are less informed about good hardangerfiddles than they are about violins. But I repeat: I have no experience with them.)

[martin swan]

7 minutes ago, Salve Håkedal said:

 

(Maybe Martin was not thinking about the the setup, though. Anyway, I suspect that chinese makers are less informed about good hardangerfiddles than they are about violins. But I repeat: I have no experience with them.)

I was being very ironic - my point was that any inexpensive Chinese instrument was likely to be equally hopeless.

I agree that the set-up process is very different from that of a violin. I learnt that the hard way!

But fundamentally if these Chinese instruments have regular violin dimensions then they aren't hardangers at all.

[Salve Håkedal]

OK, Martin!

[catt]

Thank you again Cerulean.  I'll have to try that D'addario hack for the 'G' string!

[Anders Buen]

On 4/25/2023 at 3:31 AM, Cerulean5346 said:

If your strings are breaking prematurely, you might want to work with your luthier to address that problem directly. Common causes of broken strings include an improperly cut nut, lack of graphite lubrication at the nut and bridge, sharp fingernails, and not wiping the strings off after each playing session.  Gut strings are inherently elastic and tend to be more tolerant of cross tuning than synthetic strings, which might be why Hardanger fiddle players never switched over to synthetic!

 

Wiping bare gut strings along their entire length with sweet almond oil is supposed to extend string life.  I do this every week or two.  Sweet almond oil can sometimes be found at drug stores beside the essential oils.  Make sure that you clean off all the residue when you are finished and don’t allow any to get onto your bow hair.  It is better to do this after you are done playing for the day.

 

You might also experiment with different strings.  If you are having problems with the Pirastro Hardanger Fidel set, you might try the Rudi Fanitullen set, or vice versa.  If the close-wound D string is breaking, you could try the loose-wound version.  The D’Addario Pro-Arté synthetic D string is supposed to be a workable substitute for the Hf gut G and is quite a bit less expensive.  I have been using a Gamut Academie 0.68 mm plain gut as the A string and a Gamut 0.94 mm gimped gut as the D with good results.

 

Hf specialists who regularly post on MN include @Anders Buen, @Salve Håkedal, and @ezh (David Golber).  They might have other ideas.  To get advice from other specialists, you could try asking this question on the Hardanger Fiddle Association of America Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/21061116655   I’m only a hobbyist, so take anything I say with a grain of salt.

 

Best of luck!

 

 

I do not have much to add to this. But I can say from experience that the steel e-string will break before any of the other due to (high) tension. I've experimented with "high tuning", the a string Usually at h) tuned to d# or even a little higher. Remember, a hardngerfiddle have shorter strings so the tension is lower than for a violin at the same pitch and strings.
However, we do see the expensive G strings break, every now and then, and I do not really know the reason for that. The loop looks weaker than the string itself, but it does not necessarily break there. Sometimes a knot with a drop of superglue is made, if the string allow that. I use Rudi Fanitullen 10,5 gauge.

Edited April 26, 2023 by Anders Buen
Spelling corrections

[Cerulean5346]

Hello @Anders Buen

On the topic of alternate strings for Hardanger fiddle, I was intrigued to read on an old thread that your father Knut occasionally used steel for all four bowed strings, such as on his recording of Grieg’s “Peasant Dances Op. 72.”

 

On 10/9/2010 at 7:38 AM, Anders Buen said:

My father has one instrument tuned in A for performances with piano or wind orchestras. E.g. the Grieg "Slåtter" Norwegian Peasant Dances, Op72 where he play the original tunes on the Hardanger fiddle in alternation with the piano versions. He then use steel strings on his Hardanger fiddle.

Do you know his reason for using steel rather than gut for the bass (G), ters (D), and kvart (A)?  What gauges or thicknesses did he use?

Thank you in advance!

Edited April 26, 2023 by Cerulean5346

[catt]

On 4/26/2023 at 8:51 AM, Anders Buen said:

However, we do see the expensive G strings break, every now and then, and I do not really know the reason for that.

Mine have been breaking between the peg and the nut.  I am learning tunes in several different tunings, so I spend a lot of time stretching and releasing that G string.  I know that's normal, but perhaps folks are more organized with their playing - minimizing string modulations as much as possible, rather than constantly going back and forth as this learner is, at this time.  ?

I just ordered a D'Addario nylon D, so I'll see if this will work.  

Many thanks!

[catt]

23 hours ago, Cerulean5346 said:

Hello @Anders Buen

On the topic of alternate strings for Hardanger fiddle, I was intrigued to read on an old thread that your father Knut occasionally used steel for all four bowed strings, such as on his recording of Grieg’s “Peasant Dances Op. 72.”

 

Do you know his reason for using steel rather than gut for the bass (G), ters (D), and kvart (A)?  What gauges or thicknesses did he use?

Thank you in advance!

And, am I hearing some very high-tuned pieces Mr Knut has been recorded performing?  I tried to get my fiddle up there once, and immediately gave up thinking that my 10.5 set-up would never get there. ?

[La Folia]

You can order Rudi strings from hfaa.org.  They should last several months with normal use.  If you have trouble with strings breaking, then you need to look at the fitting (nut, tailpiece, etc.) where they are breaking.

[Anders Buen]

16 hours ago, catt said:

And, am I hearing some very high-tuned pieces Mr Knut has been recorded performing?  I tried to get my fiddle up there once, and immediately gave up thinking that my 10.5 set-up would never get there. ?

Hi! As mentioned earlier, the e-string breaks first on a well set up instrument, if you try to tune very high. My experiments are a bit extreme, though. Normal use and tuning should give strings that lasts for years, if the playing and humidity conditions are fairly stable. Every now and then a G-string or an other gut string snaps. But that can easily happen while you are not playing the instrument. 
The string tension is dependant on the length. So if the string length is violin like, you will probaly see trouble eariler than for a hardangerfiddle with, say 300-305mm strings, if you try to tune the instrument higher. It will be less pleasant to play as well with 10,5 gauga HF strings on a violin mensur, as the strings will bend more easily under the bow.

[Anders Buen]

On 4/26/2023 at 10:13 PM, Cerulean5346 said:

Hello @Anders Buen

On the topic of alternate strings for Hardanger fiddle, I was intrigued to read on an old thread that your father Knut occasionally used steel for all four bowed strings, such as on his recording of Grieg’s “Peasant Dances Op. 72.”

 

Do you know his reason for using steel rather than gut for the bass (G), ters (D), and kvart (A)?  What gauges or thicknesses did he use?

Thank you in advance!

He has one insturment set up and tuned in A, which is low tuning for a HF. I think he tunes that fiddle higher nomally, but for the playing of Griegs op 72, he use tuning in A for playing of the tunes in the same pitch as the piano. 
He also put steel strings on instruments for learning purposes, because the fiddles stay in tune longer. 
I think it is Spirocore "weich", but are not sure. I'll see what I have in my string drawer at home. They have yellow silk, which is weich.

[Cerulean5346]

The idea to use the Pro Arté D string in place of the Hf G comes from Inna Larsen at the HFAA.  It seems that many other players are frustrated by the cost and fragility of the Hf G, and this solution has become quite popular there.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/21061116655/search/?q=Pro%20Arte

She is oddly specific about which string should be used.  It is the D’Addario Pro Arté aluminum-wound D, medium gauge, product number J5603.  It is the closest in terms of tension, diameter, and sound to the Hf G.

You can remove the brass ball by gently crushing it with needle-nose pliers and then removing the shards with tweezers.  Be careful not to kink or otherwise damage the loop.  You also might need to remove some of the silk wrapping if it touches the bridge.  I use an emery board to fray the silk and then unwrap enough so that it is the same length as on the original Hf string.  Don’t allow the emery board to touch the delicate aluminum windings.  You can rub a tiny bit of white glue on the end of the remaining silk to prevent it from unravelling further.

It still might be worthwhile to have a luthier look at your nut.  String breakage between the nut and peg would suggest that the string is not sliding freely in the slot.

My fiddle has a polished bone nut and the string slots are quite wide.  Since it is so old, I doubt that it was originally cut like that.  But I have noticed that many Hfs have bone nuts.  I wonder whether polished bone would provide less friction than ebony.  An old Swedish regular fiddle of mine has what looks like a polished brown cow horn nut and saddle.

[Cerulean5346]

3 hours ago, Anders Buen said:

He has one insturment set up and tuned in A, which is low tuning for a HF. I think he tunes that fiddle higher nomally, but for the playing of Griegs op 72, he use tuning in A for playing of the tunes in the same pitch as the piano. 
He also put steel strings on instruments for learning purposes, because the fiddles stay in tune longer. 
I think it is Spirocore "weich", but are not sure. I'll see what I have in my string drawer at home. They have yellow silk, which is weich.

Thank you for the information, Anders.

I was surprised that he would put steel violin strings on a Hf at all, even if they are weich (light) gauge.  It makes sense that he only does this on a short-scale (300–305 mm) instrument when the kvart is tuned down to 440 Hz, so that the tension stays within acceptable limits. 

Steel might also make the instrument louder or clearer, but some of the Hf’s unique tonal qualities would be lost.  It would be practical to use steel strings for teaching purposes, but I found it intriguing that he would use them on a recording.

[Anders Buen]

15 hours ago, Cerulean5346 said:

Thank you for the information, Anders.

 

I was surprised that he would put steel violin strings on a Hf at all, even if they are weich (light) gauge.  It makes sense that he only does this on a short-scale (300–305 mm) instrument when the kvart is tuned down to 440 Hz, so that the tension stays within acceptable limits. 

 

Steel might also make the instrument louder or clearer, but some of the Hf’s unique tonal qualities would be lost.  It would be practical to use steel strings for teaching purposes, but I found it intriguing that he would use them on a recording.

 

Yes, I guess the typical HF string sound is changed a bit. Louder is opposite to HF charcteristics. Low tuned is also a little A-typical, except that they tune the fiddles lower in Hardanger and use thicker gauge strings. However, the bridge is tstill the same. And there is quite a bit variance between HF timbre and characteristics.
Many of my fathers instruments are tuned rather high. There are separate ones for different tunings, scordatura. So considering the fairly large variation in tunings, instruments and possibilities, I can't see that an instrument with "steel strings" is much surprising nor a problem. I do not know what he does today with it. But he has been playing with Arve Tellefsen sometimes. My father uses rubber "gaskets" under the strings, a ring placed over the bridge at the string nothces, "rounding off" the tone a little. Arve asked why he had those, it is such a good instrument! Why not remove them?

I do not know what he did, but the fiddle has always been with him, I think, in the four case. Ha finished the instrument hiself, made the fingerbaords, the rose decorations and probably the colour and varnish. It has a drawing of him playing in a charateristic posture listening on the room sound, on the back made by my mother. And my grandpa has "avtemt" the plates using his characteristic and quite unique plate tuning. It is a personal instrument in many respects.
He is a very good teacher on insturments I'd say. And he has been an instrument tester and "seller" for his foster father and uncle he grew up with. He was a fiddle maker after retiring from bus driving. Papa is good at finding music and tunes "fitting the fiddle". Finding the "soft spots" they may have. 

So a steel string instrument may have its "soft spots" for performances where you may not be able to tune easily, or for Grieg op 72. or anything else, like plying psalms, I guess.

That instrument with the drawing, was used in high tuning with traditional HF strings in the 70ties. And I think it may be one of the instruments played on the MC "Slåttesull and Fanitull" with his late brother Hauk. The instrments and the players there are very well in shape. :-)

Much of the HF characteristics lies in the playing gestures, I think. Partly the HF bridge and to some extent the strings and tuning. It is different. I think he does the Grieg in traditional tuning and setup as well.   

[lvlagneto]

Will we be blessed with photos at any point?  These are always fun to see.

[Marty Kasprzyk]

On 4/29/2023 at 3:51 AM, Anders Buen said:

> My father uses rubber "gaskets" under the strings, a ring placed over the bridge at the string nothces, "rounding off" the tone a little. >

Hi Anders,

The hardness of an impact hammer tip also affects the high frequency portion of the frequency response in a violin bridge impact test: a hard tip increases it while a soft tip decreases it.

Violin E strings often have a tiny plastic sleeve which I believe is used to prevent the very thin steel string from cutting into the rather soft maple bridge.   I've seen some bridges made with ebony inserts for each string.  I assume the ebony is used because it is more wear resistant than maple wood.  I'm guessing that these hard ebony inserts might also increase the brightness of an instrument. 

Your father's rubber gaskets should also give better wear resistance but with a more mellow sound.

Did he use the rubber gaskets on all of the strings?

I'm visualizing a bridge with interchangeable inserts of several different hardnesses (but of equal weights) for each string.   This would allow independent changes for each string's sound character without affecting all the others.  

Different insert sets could be made with different weights to give various well known muting affects.  A light hard insert would give the brightest sound and a heavy soft one give be the darkest.

This could give a huge number of combinations to provide endless experimentation for people who are never happy with the sound of their violin and violin shops might love this.

 

 

[Anders Buen]

13 hours ago, Marty Kasprzyk said:

Hi Anders,

The hardness of an impact hammer tip also affects the high frequency portion of the frequency response in a violin bridge impact test: a hard tip increases it while a soft tip decreases it.

Violin E strings often have a tiny plastic sleeve which I believe is used to prevent the very thin steel string from cutting into the rather soft maple bridge.   I've seen some bridges made with ebony inserts for each string.  I assume the ebony is used because it is more wear resistant than maple wood.  I'm guessing that these hard ebony inserts might also increase the brightness of an instrument. 

Your father's rubber gaskets should also give better wear resistance but with a more mellow sound.

Did he use the rubber gaskets on all of the strings?

I'm visualizing a bridge with interchangeable inserts of several different hardnesses (but of equal weights) for each string.   This would allow independent changes for each string's sound character without affecting all the others.  

Different insert sets could be made with different weights to give various well known muting affects.  A light hard insert would give the brightest sound and a heavy soft one give be the darkest.

This could give a huge number of combinations to provide endless experimentation for people who are never happy with the sound of their violin and violin shops might love this.

 

 

Hi Marty,

Interesting thoughts. I do not know if he uses them any longer. But they use a "steel" e string as the A-string. The normal A is a plain gut. They (my late uncle Hauk) and father use this gasket under that string on all instruments. I have not used it. I think the "steel-e" string is a Spiroccore-e "weich". It is overwound.
I think the bow hair and the finger damp the strings more than this gasket, and that the notches on the bridge are less important as the most "lossy part" will dominate the response.