Yamaha has reinvented the production process for the violin

[Marty Kasprzyk]

On 1/24/2019 at 7:23 PM, Tom Fid said:

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Seems like lamination wouldn't get you much structurally unless you vary the direction, though it wouldn't have to be 90 degrees.

The bent top grain follows the longitudinal arch shape so the longitudinal elastic modulus is not reduced like in typical carved tops.

On the other hand if it  has 3 layers the longitudinal stiffness is reduced by having a center layer going 90 degrees cross wise while the cross direction is increased.

On the other hand stiffness isn't greatly increased because the center region doesn't contribute nearly as much to bending stiffness as the outer layers (squared distance to the center line effect).

So the lamination might have a small effect on the vibration modes frequencies and shapes even if the layers are at 90 degrees.  Anything less than 90 degrees will minimize the effects even more.

However I'm disappointed that Yamaha has chosen to keep the traditional violin shape and proportions which evolved over centuries for carved plates.  If the ratio of the longitudinal and cross directions are different from plain wood then the optimum proportions will be different--I'm guessing that the Yamaha violin should have been made a little narrower to account for its higher cross grain stiffness.

However the cross direction center layer does very effectively prevent crack propagation and the violins should be very robust.

A down side of the lamination process is the the glue adds weight which diminishes the sound output.  On the other hand the glue interfaces might present an opportunity to optimize the plates's damping characteristics by choosing the adhesive used.  A constrained viscoelastic layer is often used to control vibrations at certain frequencies.  I suggest a system that dampens anything over 4000Hz.

Another advantage of the laminated plates is that it is a lot less wasteful of wood.  Veneer spruce and maple are quite inexpensive. 

Nobody wrecks their bodies hogging out arches or expensive CNC machines aren't needed.

 

[Eryri]

V.S.O.

[edi malinaric]

5 hours ago, Marty Kasprzyk said:

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 A constrained viscoelastic layer is often used to control vibrations at certain frequencies.  I suggest a system that dampens anything over 4000Hz.

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Aaah - so that's why we varnish them!

cheers edi

 

 

[Andreas Preuss]

I guess for factory made fiddles anything goes. I would called it overpriced pressed crap.

Waiting for the factory which manages to bend unlamimated spruce tops. 

 

[GeorgeH]

26 minutes ago, Andreas Preuss said:

Waiting for the factory which manages to bend unlamimated spruce tops. 

I believe that "Medio Fino" violins were made using unlaminated pressed spruce tops.

[edi malinaric]

1 hour ago, Andreas Preuss said:

I guess for factory made fiddles anything goes. I would called it overpriced pressed crap.

Waiting for the factory which manages to bend unlamimated spruce tops. 

 

Hi Andreas - that shouldn't present any problems.

One could vacuum infuse the pre-shaped plate with a resin prior to the pressing operation and cure the resin using radio frequency radiation. By cunningly varying the thickness of the plate you could achieve optimal densities at various points on the plate. The resin could be tinted the colour of choice. 

Nothing new here - since the 1930s and still today, laminated propeller blades were/are made like this.

http://www.dehonit.de/media/downloads/dehonit-compressed-laminated-wood-englisch.pdf

Then there's the article by Helen Michetschlager on steam bending the viola front plates from 5mm thick stock.

cheers edi

 

[Don Noon]

30 minutes ago, edi malinaric said:

Nothing new here - since the 1930s and still today, laminated propeller blades were/are made like this.

http://www.dehonit.de/media/downloads/dehonit-compressed-laminated-wood-englisch.pdf

At 1.4 density, compressed wood might be good for fingerboards and pegs, but not much else on a violin.

[Andreas Preuss]

2 hours ago, edi malinaric said:

Hi Andreas - that shouldn't present any problems.

One could vacuum infuse the pre-shaped plate with a resin prior to the pressing operation and cure the resin using radio frequency radiation. By cunningly varying the thickness of the plate you could achieve optimal densities at various points on the plate. The resin could be tinted the colour of choice. 

Nothing new here - since the 1930s and still today, laminated propeller blades were/are made like this.

http://www.dehonit.de/media/downloads/dehonit-compressed-laminated-wood-englisch.pdf

Then there's the article by Helen Michetschlager on steam bending the viola front plates from 5mm thick stock.

cheers edi

 

I actually spent some time experimenting with bent spruce tops in my super light violin project  trying a different method from michetschlagers approach. She pretty much recreated something what could have been made in Brescia at the time of Da Salo and Maggini. 

I didn't like the adding of wood to build the glue surfaces for the end blocks and tried a diffferent approach. Unfortumately I hadn't enough time to elaborate it to the end and put it on hold. 

 

[Violadamore]

IMHO, when redesigning the violin, one must remember that the whole thing's a game, and (to bend a context), "The play's the thing!".  The players, the luthiers, the collectors, and the dealers are are all competing with each other, within their own spheres, and within a fixed, traditional context.  There are rules, particularly at the highest levels of competition.  Innovating in violin design raises the same issues as meddling with the equipment in any other competitive sport.  

[edi malinaric]

16 hours ago, Don Noon said:

At 1.4 density, compressed wood might be good for fingerboards and pegs, but not much else on a violin.

Hi Don - agreed. My thoughts ran away a little.

Originally I was only thinking about pressing the plate into shape and then those thoughts morphed into machining the plate and leaving extra thickness in selected areas to be compressed during the plate forming phase - thus giving variable selected densities - incorporating the resin as an integral varnishing... One wouldn't compress to the levels of those "engineered" types (just enough pressure and heat to set the plate to shape) so the SG could remain close to normal.

Some years ago I tried to buy some compressed wood "ebony" from the States but they couldn't be bothered to export a 1 cello fingerboard quantity to South Africa.

[edi malinaric]

15 hours ago, Andreas Preuss said:

I actually spent some time experimenting with bent spruce tops in my super light violin project  trying a different method from michetschlagers approach. She pretty much recreated something what could have been made in Brescia at the time of Da Salo and Maggini. 

I didn't like the adding of wood to build the glue surfaces for the end blocks and tried a diffferent approach. Unfortumately I hadn't enough time to elaborate it to the end and put it on hold. 

 

Hi Andreas - I like the HM method - mainly because the grain fibres run continuously from top to bottom of the plate. Somehow that seems to be a good thing.

The extra doublers (blacks and corners) required wouldn't be much of a problem. I'd use epoxy - so possible separation would cease to be a factor.

I might try it - I have a stainless steel re-blueing tank with gas burners that I could re-purpose for the steaming part of the job.

cheers edi