The importance of varnish

[Davide Sora]

15 hours ago, Michael Szyper said:

Hi Davide, yes i think this was more of a 'guess' rather than an scientific result Generally they also talked about the known varnish adhesion issues and the thermoplasticity. Brandmair mentioned that maybe the cold season in Cremona (did not know that you have something like that ) led to major chipping. She also claimed that probably the Instruments lost the majority of it's varnish in the first decades. This goes probably with @David Burgess's disagreement about violin polish being responsible for varnish loss. Seems that i was wrong about that.

 This book seems to bring a lot of useful input. I strongly consider buying it. Her presentation was way too short to go into great detail.

There are good chances that at the time of Stradivari the winters here in Cremona were more similar to those of your home, given the problem of global warming

As for the book by Brandmair and Grainer I think it's worth the price only for the fantastic photographs and astonishing macro details  it contains, the rest is certainly interesting but surely interpretable and not conclusive, admitted that this will never be possible, in any case the best physical description of the Cremonese varnish I have ever read.

The high cost I think is given more than anything else by the quality of the photos, like all other books on violins with high quality real size pictures.
 

[Melvin Goldsmith]

1 hour ago, Davide Sora said:

There are good chances that at the time of Stradivari the winters here in Cremona were more similar to those of your home, given the problem of global warming

As for the book by Brandmair and Grainer I think it's worth the price only for the fantastic photographs and astonishing macro details  it contains, the rest is certainly interesting but surely interpretable and not conclusive, admitted that this will never be possible, in any case the best physical description of the Cremonese varnish I have ever read.

The high cost I think is given more than anything else by the quality of the photos, like all other books on violins with high quality real size pictures.
 

I agree. . It is an undergraduate work masquerading as science with no mention of control experiments

 

[Dave Slight]

It’s a problem with many books, they become the bible for some.

[Danube Fiddler]

12 hours ago, Dave Slight said:

It’s a problem with many books, they become the bible for some.

Yes, and generally it is in the responsibility of scientific authors to discuss the limitations of their approach and therefore to let their readers stay a little bit careful.

 

[Davide Sora]

2 hours ago, Danube Fiddler said:

Yes, and generally it is in the responsibility of scientific authors to discuss the limitations of their approach and therefore to let their readers stay a little bit careful.

Brandmair does, Greiner is just a violin maker....

[Danube Fiddler]

17 minutes ago, Davide Sora said:

Brandmair does, Greiner is just a violin maker....

A little problem of this book could have been, that a scientifically working person and a maker with a more practical approach had to find some agreement also in the general presentation. Eventually it would have been nice to read somewhere in this book : .....here we do not agree : I (Brandmair) think, ...but Greiner thinks ...... 

However surely it is a "one must have read book" for everyone making violins. Even when one assumes ( like me ), that the success of Greiner is not mainly based on the quality of his varnish, instead much more on, let´s say, the quality of his "white violins" (according to Keith Hills "90%"). However never have had one of his instruments in my hands. 

[Peter K-G]

1 hour ago, Davide Sora said:

....just a violin maker....

 Has it become to just a violin maker

[scordatura]

16 hours ago, Melvin Goldsmith said:

I agree. . It is an undergraduate work masquerading as science with no mention of control experiments

 

I think you may have a point. Arguably some of the other academics in the field (Nagavary) have gone down some interesting if not strange paths in search of the varnish or Cremona "holy grail". That being said, we have come a long way from the early efforts of Condax/Sacconi. Some of this is due to the improvement of analytic tools. I think we would all agree that there are many variables to manage when making fiddles.

[Davide Sora]

5 hours ago, Peter K-G said:

 Has it become to just a violin maker 

I have all respect for Greiner as a violin maker, what I meant to say is that he is not a scientist but just a maker and is not bound in his statements to scientific rigor as instead Brandmair must be.

[Danube Fiddler]

While there is more and more interesting research in old varnish-samples by very improved analytical instruments, resulting in such publications like Echard et al and B&G and also the research of Bruce Tai ( however more about wood ) , I would like to focus on the importance or efficiency of the discussed varnishes for sound.

Another approach could be the question ( I repeat it)   : 

Why the great old-italian makers used a varnish, which was that vulnerable instead of varnishes being more stable ? I.m.o. the used conifer-resins had been the main reason for the vulnerability of the great Cremones varnishes. Most probably these resins had been quite cheap, much cheaper than e.g. Sandarac or Amber, which also can be used for oil-varnishes. So one could argue, that makers ( mostly not that rich ) just had to use cheap varnishes. However what´s about Stradivari - he was a rich man, he surely could afford to buy oriental resins like Sandarac for a "better" varnish. Why he didn´t ?   

So my suspicion is : conifer resins, cooked with linseed oil have an important advantage in comparison to other resins like Sandarac or Amber. Which kind has this advantage ? Is it an acoustical benefit or just the benefit to wear faster ( and therefore fastly producing the wanted "old instruments" ). I don´t believe, that the "aging issue" is convincing : Who would have been interested in this, would have done better, to build antiqued violins immediately ( like many makers in our days ). 

So there is an old varnish, which has had some serious disadvantages : 

- fastly wearing or chipping and therefore loosing its protecting function quite soon

- uncomfortable for players -  particularly during warm periods, then probably sticking and disturbing

Which was the benefit of this old varnish to compensate for these serious drawbacks ?  There must be a really great advantage. When we assume, that it is a sound - benefit : Why these soft and brittle conifer - resins should be better for sound ? How we could imagine their positive function in comparison to Sandarac or Amber, which would produce a more permanent varnish ?

[John Harte]

1 hour ago, Danube Fiddler said:

While there is more and more interesting research in old varnish-samples by very improved analytical instruments, resulting in such publications like Echard et al and B&G and also the research of Bruce Tai ( however more about wood ) , I would like to focus on the importance or efficiency of the discussed varnishes for sound.

Another approach could be the question ( I repeat it)   : 

Why the great old-italian makers used a varnish, which was that vulnerable instead of varnishes being more stable ? I.m.o. the used conifer-resins had been the main reason for the vulnerability of the great Cremones varnishes. Most probably these resins had been quite cheap, much cheaper than e.g. Sandarac or Amber, which also can be used for oil-varnishes. So one could argue, that makers ( mostly not that rich ) just had to use cheap varnishes. However what´s about Stradivari - he was a rich man, he surely could afford to buy oriental resins like Sandarac for a "better" varnish. Why he didn´t ?   

So my suspicion is : conifer resins, cooked with linseed oil have an important advantage in comparison to other resins like Sandarac or Amber. Which kind has this advantage ? Is it an acoustical benefit or just the benefit to wear faster ( and therefore fastly producing the wanted "old instruments" ). I don´t believe, that the "aging issue" is convincing : Who would have been interested in this, would have done better, to build antiqued violins immediately ( like many makers in our days ). 

So there is an old varnish, which has had some serious disadvantages : 

- fastly wearing or chipping and therefore loosing its protecting function quite soon

- uncomfortable for players -  particularly during warm periods, then probably sticking and disturbing

Which was the benefit of this old varnish to compensate for these serious drawbacks ?  There must be a really great advantage. When we assume, that it is a sound - benefit : Why these soft and brittle conifer - resins should be better for sound ? How we could imagine their positive function in comparison to Sandarac or Amber, which would produce a more permanent varnish ?

How do you know that old Italian makers didn't use sandarac and amber?

[kevin Prestwich]

I had two of my violins hanging around for about 6 months. I attended a varnish making and application workshop with Terry Borman. I revarnished both of these violins and they both sold within about 4 days. They both sounded much better with a “lighter impact” varnish system. I say system because it’s not just the ingredients of the varnish but the manner in which it is made, stored, applied, removed, and so on. 

[Peter K-G]

11 hours ago, Davide Sora said:

I have all respect for Greiner as a violin maker, what I meant to say is that he is not a scientist but just a maker and is not bound in his statements to scientific rigor as instead Brandmair must be.

I figured what you meant and I also meant in general "just a violin maker", to make a point.

Thinking like this; Brandmair is just a scientist and Greiner is The violin maker

 

 

[Danube Fiddler]

8 hours ago, John Harte said:

How do you know that old Italian makers didn't use sandarac and amber?

It´s not about ME, I naturally don´t know it.

The research of Echard et al and B&G came to the conclusion, that conifer-resins had been used - if I remember right. It seems to be displayed by the current predominant use of colophon-oil-varnishes ( in comparision to other oil-varnishes ) by makers of our days. 

However Nagyvary in his review of B&G writes, that at least by FTIR-spectra the discrimination of conifer-resin vs. e.g. Sandarac would not work, even the spectra of linseed-oil and colophony look quite similar. At the moment there are available some different methods like "pyrolysis GC/MS" - I don´t know, if they were used for this question and also the review of Nagyvary i.m.o. is not clear in this point. 

Even when one lets the direct resin-identification unanswered, then these things remain : 

- in the old Cremonese time there were known resistant varnishes,  even and particularly oil - varnishes ( if I remember right, in Buonanni you can read recipes, suitable to resist a hammer-impact )

- the old Cremonese masters refused to use "fine" (resistant) varnishes, but instead they used "poor" varnishes ( wearing fastly and not giving persistant protection to instruments). Nearly every french maker 100 years later used much "better" varnish.

WHY the old Cremonese insisted on such "bad" varnishes ?

[martin swan]

It’s easy to fall into the logical trap of thinking that Stradivari et all knew they were great and important historic makers.

I think it most likely that the Cremonese varnish was preferred because it was beautiful rather than because it bestowed magical tonal qualities or because it would last 300 years.

If we imagine an early 18th Century Cremonese maker looking at an Andrea Amati, perhaps they just looked ar the varnish and thought “well it’s a bit tatty but what do you expect from a violin thats 150 years old?”.

I would think the priority was to produce something attractive that would sell quickly or which would satisfy the client for 10 years or so, maybe 20.

there are plenty of examples in pottery, glass, cabinetry etc where beauty takes precedence over longevity.

 

[HoGo]

57 minutes ago, martin swan said:

It’s easy to fall into the logical trap of thinking that Stradivari et all knew they were great and important historic makers.

I think it most likely that the Cremonese varnish was preferred because it was beautiful rather than because it bestowed magical tonal qualities or because it would last 300 years. 

If we imagine an early 18th Century Cremonese maker looking at an Andrea Amati, perhaps they just looked ar the varnish and thought “well it’s a bit tatty but what do you expect from a violin thats 150 years old?”. 

I would think the priority was to produce something attractive that would sell quickly or which would satisfy the client for 10 years or so, maybe 20.

there are plenty of examples in pottery, glass, cabinetry etc where beauty takes precedence over longevity.

 

Amen to that! I fully agree, they used just what was commonly used in their day. Did some modifications from time to time for reasons that will remain unknown to us, perhaps supplier changed raw product or similar simple reason. But some may think he was searching for holy grail of violin making glory...

But you are going against all those romantic ideas... 

[John Harte]

@ Danube Fiddler.

Both sandarac and amber have been mentioned as being present in certain old Italian varnishes.  (Ref. analyses carried out by Raymond White and by the Central Laboratory for Objects of Art and Science, Amsterdam.)

Clearly identifying all that might be involved in any historical varnish system is yet to be achieved.  Even on a fundamental level, certain resins remain difficult to detect, especially run resins.  Echard is obviously mindful of this, having stated the following in his now defunct blog (16 Sept 2014), "It is today quite easy to detect the presence of most non volatile ingredients (oils, resins, glues, etc.) in an historical varnish (One day, I'll discuss the specific and complex case of amber...), using micro-analytical methods on a micro-sample."   

[Danube Fiddler]

1 hour ago, John Harte said:

@ Danube Fiddler.

Both sandarac and amber have been mentioned as being present in certain old Italian varnishes.  (Ref. analyses carried out by Raymond White and by the Central Laboratory for Objects of Art and Science, Amsterdam.)

Clearly identifying all that might be involved in any historical varnish system is yet to be achieved.  Even on a fundamental level, certain resins remain difficult to detect, especially run resins.  Echard is obviously mindful of this, having stated the following in his now defunct blog (16 Sept 2014), "It is today quite easy to detect the presence of most non volatile ingredients (oils, resins, glues, etc.) in an historical varnish (One day, I'll discuss the specific and complex case of amber...), using micro-analytical methods on a micro-sample."   

Yes, may be sandarac and also amber were used in some old-italian varnishes ( as I said, they were known ) , but these varnishes probably would have been much more stable - not showing the Cremonese vulnerability.

The research of White is a quite old one, I don´t know, which analytical possibilities he has had in his active time. Which instruments White could examine and how he could detect Sandarac or Amber ?  Do you know some details  ? 

 Amber (- linseed- varnish) actually is mentioned in many old recipes - however according to infos of Dr. Kremer ( Alchemist Amber varnish ) after drying quite resistant against solvents ( sadly the "details"-sheet is existing only on the german part of his website ). Such varnish doesn´t fit the solubitily of the old Cremona - varnish - but eventually could fit reports about the high-protecting ( not soluble ) Cremonese ground.

[Danube Fiddler]

12 hours ago, martin swan said:

I think it most likely that the Cremonese varnish was preferred because it was beautiful rather than because it bestowed magical tonal qualities or because it would last 300 years.

This could be one possible explanation. However at first I would like to ask : Are the Cremonese varnishes in original condition (e.g. on the Messiah ) basically really more beautiful than other fine varnishes - or was it just a thing of better taste in colouring, producing and mixing fine pigments ?

However, I don´t like the assumption, that the great success of the old Cremonese MUST have been only an accident. I rather more would include the possibility, that this great and early center of violin-making had earned its success.

[Dennis J]

I find it hard to accept the proposition that a properly made conifer sap/linseed oil varnish is somehow lacking when it comes to wear, &c.

The question that comes to mind is are there other varnish systems that are known to be superior in this regard?

I'm sure there plenty of old violins that show plenty of wear however they were varnished.

I'm sure there must be many conifer or cypress species, including many sandarac, that produce gum that are, or can be, used for varnish making. If so does anybody know what the best species are?

I read a post recently where it was said that the rosin/linseed oil ingredients cross linked during cooking and polymerisation making a very durable resin. That makes sense to me.

 

[Johnmasters]

On 1/11/2019 at 12:08 PM, Danube Fiddler said:

To focus on damping seems to be a hard way, but eventually exactly this is the right way....May be the only promising kind of regarding damping (at the moment for the most persons ) would be the intuitive old way, makers of all times probably used in changing degrees. To measure it scientifically is extremely difficult and will work in free plates with normal approaches at the best for M5- modes. These are in the lowest frequency-range of importance for violins. Probably much more interesting would be the areas > 1 kHz. To measure in these areas I for myself don´t see a good chance until now. The problem is additional very complex, because radiation damping seems to play a big role, possibly the major role - and this kind of damping has a completely different nature in comparison to inner material damping. 

Yes,  radiation damping is the projected sound (what you want).

[Danube Fiddler]

7 hours ago, Dennis J said:

I find it hard to accept the proposition that a properly made conifer sap/linseed oil varnish is somehow lacking when it comes to wear, &c.

..........

I read a post recently where it was said that the rosin/linseed oil ingredients cross linked during cooking and polymerisation making a very durable resin. That makes sense to me.

 

Hi Dennis,

this only is, what I have heard and read. Just some years ago, I have heard of a violin, made by a maker, who is proud to have developped a varnish quite close to the great Cremonese one : The varnish weared in a high degree in only few years although curing very fastly ( ~ 4 hours with UV).   Sadly I have nearly no own experiences in making different conifer-oil-varnishes.  

May be the durability of a conifer-varnish also would depend on proper curing - which is a question of time and costs for makers. That would mean : if you think, your last layer would be really dry - NO, DON´T DO IT !  Don´t go on with the next layer, but give two more weeks of further air- and UV-exposition. Only then do the next layer. If one is prepared to take this additional time ( + ~ 3 months in total ), even a conifer-varnish eventually could become more stable. Just some speculations.

Some more words to your Hill-Varnish : some weeks ago I heard from a pastry-chef, who said, that more than half of all recipes would not work. That would mean, in varnish recipes one always should be aware of the possibility of serious differences in behaviour than reported by the author. These serious differences could touch safety-aspects. E.g. when Keith Hill tells, that the oxidized terp after the first overcooking never would overcook a second time during going on of cooking. Can one be sure ?

[Danube Fiddler]

5 hours ago, Johnmasters said:

Yes,  radiation damping is the projected sound (what you want).

I am afraid : not only. What´s about acoustical short-curcuits ? They seem to play a significant role, whether a certain mode is a well - radiating one ( like B1-modes ) or only poorly radiating ( like CBR ). However I assume, that the energy - loss ( radiation damping ) of CBR instead also is great, sadly not resulting in sound in larger distances. The same with M2- modes of free plates.

[Dennis J]

Hi Danube Fiddler.

I thought long ago that I would never fully understand how I might design and make a violin using basic measurements because nobody seemed to know how the early makers went about it. But I worked my way through a design process on paper, including calibrating arching templates, using bits of knowledge available. It took me about three years. I'm now totally convinced that the early makers used something similar or the same relatively simple methods.

However, I thought that trying to work out the varnish puzzle would be impossible. And I haven't really changed my mind. What you are saying does worry me, but with the Hill method a clear process is laid out, and any alternative method would be very confusing, I'm sure.

If all fails I'll buy more off-the-shelf stuff. I'll check to see if the Hill varnish is made for sale when I need it.  What you say about curing makes a lot of sense to me and leaving plenty of time between coats is only common sense.

Mind you, I thought the cooking/polymerisation process eliminated the prospect of any change to the final product once it had been applied. Time will tell.

 

[John Harte]

21 hours ago, Danube Fiddler said:

The research of White is a quite old one, I don´t know, which analytical possibilities he has had in his active time. Which instruments White could examine and how he could detect Sandarac or Amber ?  Do you know some details  ?

See here: