Arpeggione Help!

[Rue]

3 hours ago, Jim Bress said:

Rue, this may be the "guitar" you've been looking for. 

[Dwight Brown]

Did you notice the complicated frets on the instrument in the clip? I don’t know what to call them.

DLB

[Michael Jennings]

48 minutes ago, Dwight Brown said:

Did you notice the complicated frets on the instrument in the clip? I don’t know what to call them.

DLB

"Compensated"?

[AtlVcl]

3 hours ago, baroquecello said:

Well, I was assuming it will be used in modern context. If you don't say anything they might assume 430 or 415. Though usually gut strings can handle a half tone higher in pitch without many Problems.

Absent any evidence, I suggest a 200 yr old "one off" might be tuned lower. That said, there's only one known piece for the instrument so maybe the owner is a huge Schubert fan, and wants to be the talk of his neighborhood. In that case, he'll probably play with a modern piano. I agree it's probably best that only one instrument at a time be out of tune.

[uguntde]

Is there any piece beyond Schubert's sonata that was written for the Arpeggione? Apparently the instrument had disappeared by the time Schubert had written it.

[gtd]

looks like 1 other composer besides Schubert that have music out of copyright

https://imslp.org/wiki/Category:Scores_featuring_the_arpeggione

 

[Violadamore]

1 hour ago, AtlVcl said:

......... I agree it's probably best that only one instrument at a time be out of tune.

So you shouldn't accompany it with a viola? 

[FoxMitchell]

8 hours ago, PhilipKT said:

[...] Also the fingerboard seems to be askew.

That's because it was just put together in any and each way, I took the picture before I did anything to it, the bridge is all crooked. Also the angle of the photo is terrible.

I'll take better pictures later.   

 

7 hours ago, Jim Bress said:

Rue, this may be the "guitar" you've been looking for. 

Actually that is what I thought for my own self!   

 

6 hours ago, Violadamore said:

[Looks at the free guitar she hasn't gotten around to refurbishing yet, along with the German 3/4 student cello with the busted neck, and begins to formulate a plan............]

Thanks immensely for posting this! 

I wonder if that's not how it came to be in first place... "Uuhm, I have a guitar neck, a cello body, a gamba tailpiece, let's combine them all!"

 

5 hours ago, Dwight Brown said:

[...]  I have a feeling that bowed string instruments with fixed metal frets have inherent problems but I have no reference.

As a violinist, that was my first thought when I saw the frets!

[uguntde]

3 hours ago, gtd said:

looks like 1 other composer besides Schubert that have music out of copyright

https://imslp.org/wiki/Category:Scores_featuring_the_arpeggione

 

That's "Anleitung zur Erlernung des von Hrn. Georg Staufer neu erfundenen Guitare-Violoncells"

= Instructons to learn the guitar cello that was invented by Mr Georg Staufer.

 

 

[uguntde]

https://simpk.de/arpeggione_790.html

They say it is tuned E-A-d-g-h-e' as a guitar (h=b).

Here a blog about it:

http://arpeggione2009.blogspot.com/2009/08/arpeggione-stauffers-model.html

And wikiedia also has the information about the tuning

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arpeggione

according to which the only old piece is that by Schubert but since a copy of an Arpeggione was made some more have been written for it (probably transcriptions).

This is what it sounds like:

Intonation isn't great.

[jacobsaunders]

8 hours ago, AtlVcl said:

 it's probably best that only one instrument at a time be out of tune.

It is surely in the spirit of chamber music, that, should it be out of tune, one should play out of tune all together!

 

One may see the sort of piano that Schubert used in his birthplace, which is one of (the many) fascinating annexes of the “Wien Museum”. I have visited most of these with my son, and would recommend them to anyone who should be in Vienna on holiday https://www.wienmuseum.at/en/locations/schubert-geburtshaus.html

There are other places composers lived, Beethoven, Strauss, Motzart etc.to keep yourself busy for a couple of days.

 

Since it isn’t an “authentic” or “Baroque” or so such instrument, but a Biedermeyer aberration, I would have no qualms asking Infeld if they hadn’t nylon strings for it. One needn’t make intonation more difficult than it already is.

 

As a teenager I once heard the Arpeggione sonata at a concert, really liked it, and decided to study it myself. The next day I went and bought the sheet music (Cello version), and discovered immediately that is is pretty bloody difficult!

 

 

[baroquecello]

I think the Arpeggione doesn't Need to Sound out of tune. It Comes down to your skills at Tuning. Here is a recording that is not that bad: https://www.allmusic.com/album/der-arpeggione-mw0001856146

I believe there is more Repertoire, somehow I believe I heard Burgmüller wrote some stuff, and I wouldn't hesitate to search out Cello or guitar Music to arrange. If you Play Cello and guitar, or Gamba, I think it can be a fun Project. Also, one can use such an Instrument to accompany others in the way a guitar does. It has its place in history, even if it is obscure, and the Sound is probably not to everyones likening, adn I think original Instruments would probably Sound best with gut strings.

The OPs Arpeggione doesn't look like the original Thing though. Is it something chinese? These chinese copies of "Fancy" Instruments are often just visual copies and Sound terrible.

[FoxMitchell]

1 minute ago, baroquecello said:

[...] The OPs Arpeggione doesn't look like the original Thing though. Is it something chinese? These chinese copies of "Fancy" Instruments are often just visual copies and Sound terrible.

You nailed it!

 

I'm trowing in the towel on this one.

Going over the instrument, I find so much that is 'wrong' as far as this reproduction goes from what I found about the original, and the quality of the parts is so dubious, that I don't think it's worth my time and the risk of breaking something. ...which already happened, I broke 4 of the mysterious strings it had, just trying to tune it! I replaced them with some used cello strings and they're holding but tuning the damned thing is terrifying with improvised strings (I was wearing safety glasses lest the strings snap on my face, after the second one broke).

Also I found it impossible to keep the bridge between the F-hole notches, the angle of the strings behind the bridge is such that they push the bridge up once it comes under tension. The bottom of the feet of the bridge are polished smooth as glass and the top of the instrument is just as smooth so it provides some excellent sliding action!   

But here's a better picture of this monstrosity, for posterity!

 

 

I will tell the owner that if he wants me to do an overhaul and bring it to spec using gut strings made for it I'll consider, but improvising with cello strings, no, I'm done with it.

(I had never broken a string my whole life while tuning anything, so I'm particularly offended by this instrument!)

[Felefar]

It does look suspiciously similar to this: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Best-Model-6-Strings23-1-4-SONG-Maestro-arpeggione-powerful-sound-12521/232872984676?hash=item36384fc064:g:aZIAAOSwUC1bZAiw

 

[FoxMitchell]

7 minutes ago, Felefar said:

It does look suspiciously similar to this: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Best-Model-6-Strings23-1-4-SONG-Maestro-arpeggione-powerful-sound-12521/232872984676?hash=item36384fc064:g:aZIAAOSwUC1bZAiw

 

lol that's the one!  

[Rue]

I have a Song 1/8? violin that I bought a few years ago (as a decoration mostly).  Very pretty, but I also noticed it was heavily varnished.  Since I'm not playing it, doesn't matter.

However, if the owner of this instrument payed $800 and does want to play it, they'll have to accept it needs tweaking.

[gtd]

9 hours ago, uguntde said:

That's "Anleitung zur Erlernung des von Hrn. Georg Staufer neu erfundenen Guitare-Violoncells"

= Instructons to learn the guitar cello that was invented by Mr Georg Staufer.

yep, however if you scroll all the way down there's a few simple studies, and 1 or 2 short pieces. Basically, I would agree, there's not a whole lot actual repertoire. 

[AtlVcl]

11 hours ago, baroquecello said:

I think the Arpeggione doesn't Need to Sound out of tune. It Comes down to your skills at Tuning. Here is a recording that is not that bad: https://www.allmusic.com/album/der-arpeggione-mw0001856146

 

Keeping in mind that any instrument not tuned in fourths or fifths is going to sound out of tune, "not that bad" is still quite the caveat!

[Luftweg]

I got one of these 'Arpeggiones' as well...  Pretty much the same model -- from China....   I come from a Classical Guitar world...    I agree that the 'original' strings sizes were puzzling: some that seem should be thinner, are thicker (e.g., the 'D' was thicker than the 'A'), although I'm wondering if the CORES of the strings might be different (remember, a nylon wound 'g' could be thinner than a solid nylon 'b', for instance)...  Nevertheless, I did not like the 'feel' of the tension as I attempted to bring it up to pitch, and so I'm opting to change the strings right away....

Not coming from a 'bowed' string instrument world, is leaving me with questions of whether strings used on such instruments may be different simply BECAUSE it is bowed -- and not just because of different scale lengths and tuned pitches (which is of course also a factor).

I'm thinking of trying Thomastik KF110 flatwound rope cores, which are Classical Guitar strings (lower tension, although thinner in diameter (which also may pose issues with nut and bridge).  I'm also planning on changing the tuning keys at some point (the original ones appear to be rather cheap).

These 'Arpeggiones' are differently constructed from Viola da Gamba.  For instance, the back is arched, whereas the VdG is (usually?) flat.  The 'Arpeggione' body seems to be like a Violin or Cello (look at the edges and the angle meeting the neck).  But are all of them built that way?    I don't know....   

Edited May 19 by Luftweg
added content and error

[Luftweg]

On 1/9/2019 at 6:08 PM, Michael Jennings said:

"Compensated"?

or "Complicated"?...      Although I guess the tone would be somewhat different, and chord fingering is easier..... at some point, maybe fretless (in Just Intonation) may be the way to go?