Toothed blades


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2 hours ago, arglebargle said:

Someone asked me recently how toothed blades work. Why do they not tear out? And I had no good answer.

Could one of you smart folks please explain how a toothed blade works to prevent tear out?

Thank you!

Basically, a toothed blade removes less wood per stoke, than a non-toothed blade at the same outset.

After experimenting with toothed blades for decades, I pretty much don't use them any more, preferring a non-toothed plane which is set up and adjudted really well

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Maybe I'll go David's way eventually?

For now, I have two planes with toothed blades that I enjoy using for quick plane work in maple.

With both, the blades are also rounded like a scrub plane.   One is a small block plane a few inches long that I modified.  The the other is a jack plane I modified.

I made the teeth with a file.   Easy to do.

I use both as scrub planes for figured maple.  The teeth aren't an alternative to a sharpened blade, just an addition.  Because of the teeth, I can set the blades aggressively but not worry.

I love the little one for thicknessing ribs.

For me, seems worth the small effort to keep two more planes going.

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3 hours ago, David Burgess said:

 

After experimenting with toothed blades for decades, I pretty much don't use them any more, preferring a non-toothed plane which is set up and adjudted really well

I use a toothed finger plane to smooth out the regular plane blade marks on the arching before scraping. I find it gets rid of the ripples and ridges and valleys left by the other planes. What do you use?

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The toothed planes shown in the attachment are set up to provide a substrate for veneering which leaves space for glue and avoids bubbles rather than real wood removal. 

In normal planes the toothed plane makes a very fragile chip which will break rather than pulling up wood ahead of the blade. I love them for planing ribs or flattening wood with nasty grain patterns.

Good discussions of tooth patterns, making blades etc. in previous threads.

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12 minutes ago, nathan slobodkin said:

In normal planes the toothed plane makes a very fragile chip which will break rather than pulling up wood ahead of the blade. I love them for planing ribs or flattening wood with nasty grain patterns.

Is that what does it? The size of the cut is so small that it can't pull up (tear out) the surrounding wood?

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5 hours ago, arglebargle said:

Is that what does it? The size of the cut is so small that it can't pull up (tear out) the surrounding wood?

Yes.  And then the same when you use a normal blade to take out the tooth marks. Great when you have highly figured wood.

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5 hours ago, Muswell said:

Yes.  And then the same when you use a normal blade to take out the tooth marks. Great when you have highly figured wood.

Right. The reason you get tear out is that the blade is lifting a chip (shaving) which is held down by the front of the plane's mouth. If you have the plane set to take a very thin shaving and the throat set small the chip breaks because it is fragile eough that it can't lift any fibers against the pressure of the plane mouth. If the plane is set for a greater cut then the mouth must be set wider and the distance from the blade to the down pressing sole in front of the blade gets large  enough that fibers can be pushed up ahead of the blade causing tear out. A perfectly sharpened and set up plane can avoid this but in practice it is easier for us lazier types to use a plane where the chip is fragile enough that it breaks before it can lift fibers from the wood.

The marks of the tooth plane make it easy to see any low spots which have yet to be reached and subsequent scraping is also easy to read and scrapes easier due to, again, a more fragile chip.

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5 hours ago, JacksonMaberry said:

Aside from thinning ribstock, I've not tried toothed blades - though I'd like to try it out on fingerplanes and see if it speeds up my workflow. 

I find toothed finger planes essential for smoothing out the work of the regular finger plane blades. Without them I find the process of scraping the ridges and valleys out much more difficult. 

 

26 minutes ago, nathan slobodkin said:

The marks of the tooth plane make it easy to see any low spots which have yet to be reached and subsequent scraping is also easy to read and scrapes easier due to, again, a more fragile chip.

This.

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Arglebargle

That is a great question. I'm always curious about the physics of this kind of stuff myself.

I have a theory. I think as the "tooth" part of the blade starts to pull the chip up, the "notched" part of the blade comes along and cuts into the chip pushing it back down.  And as David said, it is a much smaller "chip" so it is less likely to chip out a larges piece.  So instead of tearing a large piece out you are actually tearing out a piece only as wide as the tooth - thus the tooth marks are left behind.

Just my theory.....

 

Dorian

 

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I use toothed blades and love them! 

You see them on quite a lot of old Cremonese ribs.

They need to be right. A lot of old toothed blades are simply fine toothed for scouring wood prior to gluing veneer and in old wood planes were set at almost scraper angles....these are not for us.

The toothed blades on old violin ribs  have teeth about 2mm wide with grooves in between. I make these by getting old tungsten blades and running the grooves in with a fresh wheel on an angle grinder in  a few seconds and setting them in a normal Baily plane. They will bully down the thickness of difficult ribstock fast and are satisfying to use.

I have a set of Norris thumb planes that probably were inspired by the likes of Hill in Victorian times and these come with un toothed  fine and course toothed blades. 

Rasps were popular in the old days...so was the similar concept in planes 

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7 hours ago, arglebargle said:

find toothed finger planes essential for smoothing out the work of the regular finger plane blades. Without them I find the process of scraping the ridges and valleys out much more difficult. 

I do something similar, but with a small flat bottomed plane equipped with an ordinary blade, then a progression of three thicknesses of scraper. Going straight from the furrows of curved fingerplanes to a scraper is not fun, I agree. 

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16 hours ago, Michael Szyper said:

Besides the obvious attention to grain direction in my opinion it depends on the right movement angle and finger pressure - i hope one can understand what I mean.

Of course a certain feel is required for any tool but when one is dealing with figured maple you would be planing in the "wrong" direction half the time or forced to plane across the grain.

On any sculpture there is a direction of movement which lends itself to the integrity and vitality of the shape and being able to follow that without  regard for grain direction is very helpful. Also as Melvin said we do see tooth plane marks on many good antique instruments  and I tend to leave some as a testament that the work is hand made and to lead the eye around the shape in certain ways.

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3 hours ago, nathan slobodkin said:

Of course a certain feel is required for any tool but when one is dealing with figured maple you would be planing in the "wrong" direction half the time or forced to plane across the grain.

On any sculpture there is a direction of movement which lends itself to the integrity and vitality of the shape and being able to follow that without  regard for grain direction is very helpful. Also as Melvin said we do see tooth plane marks on many good antique instruments  and I tend to leave some as a testament that the work is hand made and to lead the eye around the shape in certain ways.

I never doubted that the old masters used toothed planes. I simply do not se a need for using them. BTW, do you have an cremonese example at hand where visible toothed blade marks are on the outside arching?

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