1940s Roth violin history and grade

[BrianAvila]

On 12/14/2018 at 10:59 AM, duane88 said:

You should probably ask the Roths those questions:http://roth-violins.de/index_eng.htm My guess is that not much violin making was going on during the war years, and I am always skeptical of Roth violins dated during the WW2 years. I have seen a small number of instruments that have a Roth label from the war years, a Roth brand on the button, seem to be Roth models from before the war, but don't have the varnish of the type that you see from before the war.

 

edit: I see that Jacob beat me to it.

Duane88, could you elaborate on the differences between the varnish?

[Jeff White]

Fantastic informative article (albeit maybe Ny'er-ized).  Thanks Jacob

[jacobsaunders]

On ‎12‎/‎14‎/‎2018 at 10:17 PM, Brad Dorsey said:

Here's a 1943 Roth that sold recently on Ebay.  Though it's in rough shape, it looks as nicely made as those from the 1920s.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1943-Ernst-Heinrich-Roth-Violin-Stradivarius-Copy-Cremona-1744-/233038594191?hash=item36422ec08f%3Ag%3A2Z0AAOSwnKFcDAIi&nma=true&si=Dd7XqjMRZf%2FcK1e64c9oIQ4efjE%3D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

 

Curious that they suposedly made a copy of a 1744(!?) Strad

[BrianAvila]

23 hours ago, jacobsaunders said:

Curious that they suposedly made a copy of a 1744(!?) Strad

I noticed the 1744 as well. Thought it was odd.

[Addie]

On 12/14/2018 at 2:42 PM, Violadamore said:

Is the background photo on the brochure cover, where the numerous shrinkage-cracks on the piece of wood blends into the violin, trying to tell us something? 

Just sayin', that's a lovely composition, but I wouldn't use it on a sales brochure. 

A coat of bondo, and a bit of epoxy, and... 

[Violadamore]

1 hour ago, Addie said:

A coat of bondo, and a bit of epoxy, and... 

That cracks me up! 

[sospiri]

Thanks for posting the Joseph Wechsberg article Jacob. I enjoyed reading his book The Violin which told part of that story, it was nice to read it in full. I bought the book for £3 and I've read it many times. Partly because it's the only violin book I could afford and partly because it's a very good book.

[antero]

On ‎12‎/‎18‎/‎2018 at 9:39 AM, BrianAvila said:

I noticed the 1744 as well. Thought it was odd.

It has happened before. This one below is "1747"

I once asked here, how to explain it, but nobody replied. They probably were too busy to Google the AS bio... And the internet was probably very slow, back then, in XIX ct.

But I am not claiming this is Roth, though; there is no other mark than the usual AS...

[BrianAvila]

2 hours ago, antero said:

It has happened before. This one below is "1747"

I once asked here, how to explain it, but nobody replied. They probably were too busy to Google the AS bio... And the internet was probably very slow, back then, in XIX ct.

But I am not claiming this is Roth, though; there is no other mark than the usual AS...

Interesting.

 

I received a reply back from the Roths.  They said they couldn't help me if I didn't have an authentic Roth.  I am unsure if they just didn't understand that I was curious about some of their history or not.  Do they usually require you to have one of their violins for them to talk to you?

[Violadamore]

1 hour ago, BrianAvila said:

Interesting.

 

I received a reply back from the Roths.  They said they couldn't help me if I didn't have an authentic Roth.  I am unsure if they just didn't understand that I was curious about some of their history or not.  Do they usually require you to have one of their violins for them to talk to you?

There are many long, rambling, and often highly contentious threads regarding Roths (along with their history, prehistory, and mythology) to be found on The Auction Scroll, some of which included correspondence with the firm.  I'd suggest that if you go root around in those for a while, you might find many questions answered. 

[BrianAvila]

1 minute ago, Violadamore said:

There are many long, rambling, and often highly contentious threads regarding Roths to be found on The Auction Scroll, some of which included correspondence with the firm.  I'd suggest that if you go root around in those for a while, you might find many questions answered. 

I came across a couple dealing with eBay auctions and instruments.  I will do some extra looking.  Thanks!

[martin swan]

1 hour ago, BrianAvila said:

Interesting.

 

I received a reply back from the Roths.  They said they couldn't help me if I didn't have an authentic Roth.  I am unsure if they just didn't understand that I was curious about some of their history or not.  Do they usually require you to have one of their violins for them to talk to you?

This is not a period in the history of the firm that they particularly wish to shed light on ...

 

[BrianAvila]

Just now, martin swan said:

This is not a period in the history of the firm that they particularly wish to shed light on ...

 

Why is that?  I don't know much when it comes down to what was really going on.

[Brad Dorsey]

8 hours ago, BrianAvila said:

...Do they usually require you to have one of their violins for them to talk to you?

No.  They always require it.  See this page on their website:

http://roth-violins.de/index_eng.htm

[BrianAvila]

8 minutes ago, Brad Dorsey said:

No.  They always require it.  See this page on their website:

http://roth-violins.de/index_eng.htm

I have seen the page on their website, I have read over their history.  I am not interested in information on my violin and I am not interested in paying for information on my violin.  

What I am interested in history of the company and what they say went on during World War II.  What I did was email them about information about their history, not about a violin.  

[Violadamore]

Just now, BrianAvila said:

I have seen the page on their website, I have read over their history.  I am not interested in information on my violin and I am not interested in paying for information on my violin.  

What I am interested in history of the company and what they say went on during World War II.  What I did was email them about information about their history, not about a violin.  

Strictly IMHO, please see Martin's comment above. 

[BrianAvila]

1 minute ago, Violadamore said:

Strictly IMHO, please see Martin's comment above. 

I understand.  

[GeorgeH]

30 minutes ago, BrianAvila said:

I understand.  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_Heinrich_Roth

[BrianAvila]

8 minutes ago, GeorgeH said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_Heinrich_Roth

Funny thing about the Wikipedia page is that it says:

"Nevertheless, some instruments, though of lesser quality, continued to be produced after 1933 and throughout the war years, in difficult circumstances and without the collaboration of Roth's son Albert, who was drafted into the army from the very beginning of the war. During these trying years, Ernst Heinrich Roth was left to continue the business alone except for the help of a couple of elderly colleagues."  

The Roth website says he worked with apprentices during the war.

I guess it doesn't really matter.  1940s instruments "do come up".  If they are real or not is the question, and if they are real what is the quality?

[Violadamore]

1 hour ago, BrianAvila said:

1940s instruments "do come up".  If they are real or not is the question, and if they are real what is the quality?

Like a lot of the Markies, you may have to play them individually to find out. 

[martin swan]

To put it bluntly, during the war years EH Roth continued to sell violins with their label, but in many cases these were bought in from other makers.

Whether this makes than "not a real Roth" or not is a moot point, since from the earliest successes of the Roth firm (in the 1920s) this has been a mass-produced object ie. many hands make light work.

The whole Roth business of serial numbers and model numbers is a clever marketing device which has found major appeal with nerdy amateur collectors and fiddle fetishists who would otherwise be lost at sea in the shark-infested waters of violin attribution.

[antero]

2 hours ago, martin swan said:

The whole Roth business of serial numbers and model numbers is a clever marketing device which has found major appeal with nerdy amateur collectors and fiddle fetishists who would otherwise be lost at sea in the shark-infested waters of violin attribution.

Nicely put. But can anyone shed some light on the copy-labels that refer to post-Antonio era?

Ignorance of the producer? There are still millions of cheap boxes, referring to the "golden" periood...

[martin swan]

The last 2 figures of the date are model numbers. they are not meant to denote anything other than the quality of the violin. A Stradivari 1700 is a basic model. I suppose at some point they ran out of dates but wanted to vaunt an even better model ....!

[antero]

 Good! Probably all of them, not Roth in particular?

[Stephen Fine]

This post reminded me I've been meaning to contact the Roths about my NAZI viola.  I've always been curious about whether it was manufactured for the OKW or if it was purchased and then branded.

I just sent them an email ordering a certificate.  I'm not sure how eager they will be to talk about this instrument.

PS- for those of you who haven't been posting on the board for 20 years and don't remember my NAZI viola, I purchased it on consignment from an American GI who'd kept it under his bed for 50 years after looting it from a French chateau frequented by Hermann Goering.