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Old violin needing identification

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Before looking at the label photo I thought Mittenwald. No idea if it's Hornsteiner or not - Jacob or Blank Face know these makers very well.

Very pretty violin, I would have thought it worth trying to get the front into better shape ...

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I agree that this is a nicely made Mittenwald roughly late 18th century  with an interesting bottom. The front would need an extensive service by an experienced restorer but it could be repaired into a good state again, but this won't be inexpensive..

The label is a cheap photocopy of the Hornsteiner Hoffschmied label pictured in the Lüttgendorf book or elsewhere with excatly the same year 1789.B)Dealers usually are thinking that it's easier to sell an instrument with a name written inside, and probably they are right.:unsure:

I personally can't see any resemblance to a particular maker, there were just too many. Sometimes there are some hidden pencil inscriptions inside. You could compare with the website of the Mittenwald museum: http://www.geigenbaumuseum-mittenwald.de/index.php?id=105&L=0

 

 

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1 hour ago, Martin McClean said:

Does this help?

(Apologies for the photography) 

 

DSC_2916.JPG

 

Sorry to say, but the label is also a printed facsimile, detectable at the regular pattern of points.

Nonetheless a nice old Mittenwald in a fine condition (raising my eyebrows). I don't think that a label can add or take away anything of significance, so never mind.

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1 hour ago, Blank face said:

Sorry to say, but the label is also a printed facsimile, detectable at the regular pattern of points.

Nonetheless a nice old Mittenwald in a fine condition (raising my eyebrows). I don't think that a label can add or take away anything of significance, so never mind.

 

873478DB-887C-4842-B2AD-DCDA2246FC5E.png

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1 hour ago, Blank face said:

Sorry to say, but the label is also a printed facsimile, detectable at the regular pattern of points.

Nonetheless a nice old Mittenwald in a fine condition (raising my eyebrows). I don't think that a label can add or take away anything of significance, so never mind.

Rubbish.

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25 minutes ago, reg said:

Blank face Please explain?

The label is a modern photo print. The violin looks like what's regarded as "School of Seitz" from the first half of the 19th century due to the chippy brownish varnish and the specific purfling.

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Good morning blank face. You have me opening my workshop on a Sunday morning- I suspect you're right about the label, and I apologise for my response. The label has been there since at least the 1970s, a little research reveals it to bear a resemblance one in the jalovec book- also dated 1803!

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1 hour ago, Martin McClean said:

The photo is a little deceptive here, there is virtually no varnish left- if anything the wood appears burnished.

Good morning Martin,

this type of varnish seems to consist mostly of glue, resins and colour and is chipping or solved easily, so no wonder if there's not much left. These are photos ten years old of a violin certified (forgot by whom) as "Seiz family". Though ff and C bouts are different, other features appear to be similar.  It was nearly impossible to clean it except very carefully with paraffin oil, otherwise the varnish was solved immediately. Interesting is the lower rib, at both violins without the usual inserted saddle. The neck was originally morticed the modern way, so it must have been later than ca. 1810.

12.06.2008 13-26-55_0008r.jpg

12.06.2008 13-28-29_0009.jpg

12.06.2008 13-32-03_0014.jpg

12.06.2008 13-25-34_0007r.jpg

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As I wrote, I took this photos 10 years ago with a 2 MP camera, needed much processing etc. In nature it looked very close to the photos your providing, especially edgework, ppurfling with extended bee stings and colour.

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13 minutes ago, Blank face said:

As I wrote, I took this photos 10 years ago with a 2 MP camera, needed much processing etc. In nature it looked very close to the photos your providing, especially edgework, ppurfling with extended bee stings and colour.

I don't see it to be honest. The varnish on yours looks different in terms of colour, texture and wear.  The fs are radically different and there's not much similarity in terms of edgework or corners. 

 

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8 hours ago, Blank face said:

?

xxx1.JPG

xxx2.JPG

xx3.JPG

Is the dot matrix pattern a result of present photo (poor resolution), or is that actually the grid seen on the label?  Maybe a well-lit close-up would reveal more...

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1 hour ago, Martin McClean said:

I don't see it to be honest. The varnish on yours looks different in terms of colour, texture and wear.  The fs are radically different and there's not much similarity in terms of edgework or corners. 

 

Maybe it's different in reality and I was tricked by your first set of photos - it looked as if there were the same chppy flecks of brown varnish and the purfling set deeply at the edges. FF are different as I said before, but it was more about varnish and edgework. To put this old Mittenwald into an order of "schools of.." is at least delusive, I heard so much different opinions. If you don't find a reliable inscription somewhere it's mostly left to speculations if there's no 100% identical reference to find.

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59 minutes ago, ClefLover said:

Is the dot matrix pattern a result of present photo (poor resolution), or is that actually the grid seen on the label?  Maybe a well-lit close-up would reveal more...

This matrix is the way how the shadings of light or colours was reproduced in prints. When it's very fine you may sometimes need a microscope to see it, otherwise look at the next tabloid paper.

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I contacted the Museum in Mittenwald and they replied saying the violin is from Mittenwald around 1800 and might be from before, but need to see it in person to say anything more. I might be in southern Germany next year and maybe can take it with. I wonder from which maker or family of makers it most resembles. 

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