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potatobutter

Can you help appraise my violin?

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Hello again. Just to respond to what you guys said:

52 minutes ago, FoxMitchell said:

Any chance you could take pictures of the interior? Through the f-holes works but if you could use a dentist mirror or equivalent to get a few shouts of the interior that could help identification.

I unfortunately do not have a way to get a picture of the interior at the moment. I will definitely look into that.

13 minutes ago, Herman West said:

So the OP needs to ask his uncle when this instrument changed hands. 

I believe he got this violin about 9 or 10 years ago since that's when I remember him first taking lessons. When I get the chance, I will request that he ask the teacher since the teacher would definitely know where it was from.

55 minutes ago, FoxMitchell said:

There are incredibly knowledgeable folks in the forums here, but your best bet might be taking it to a luthier to get it looked at in person.

I do have a luthier near my uncle's home who can check this out, but I don't know if luthiers do it for free or not so I'm afraid to go.

29 minutes ago, Delabo said:

Maybe the French bridge is a faked Chinese one. The other fittings look similar to the ones on the better quality Gliga violins.

As for the bridge, uncle says it is not original to the violin at all so the bridge won't really be of much help for ID. I think the bridge might be from the luthier I mentioned above. If anyone would like photos of the bridge I can certainly include that.

26 minutes ago, Delabo said:

Looks like the consensus here thinks its a made yesterday Chinese antiqued violin.

One question: is there something bad about modern Chinese violins? Reading all the huzzbuzz about this violin possibly being Chinese makes me think that there is something bad about Chinese instruments.

Thanks again all for your help, and cheers.

Potatobutter

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I've included the best picture I can currently take of the interior wood.

Also, if you look at the three additional pictures, there seems to be some sort of dip on the inside of the purfling. I don't know if this could help with identification but I'm sure it wouldn't hurt to know. It's like roughly 11mm in width from the edge of the body inward. Notice how the light seems to end a little bit in from the purfling. Also, on the side profile, the tailpiece shadow seems curved. I've never seen this prominent of a feature anywhere else on violins until I got this violin. Most other violins I've looked at don't generally have a noticeable dip from the body to the edge or near the purfling.

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Edited by potatobutter
Add more information and one picture

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18 hours ago, potatobutter said:

...

I asked my uncle about it, and he says that he purchased it from his teacher when he was interested in playing violin, but other than that he has no knowledge of where the violin came from.

My biggest concerns about the instrument are that it has the wood issue that I took a picture of, the varnish sort of flakes of, and there is no label. However, I did do some research ans apparently there are Strads with knots or wood imperfections, and sometimes the label could be faked anyway so the label isn't too clear an indicator of violin quality.

If you could ask your Uncle what year he purchased it, and how old it might have been at the time of purchase (if it wasn't brand new), that will certainly help narrow down a time-line.

The knot issue is a non-issue, so don't worry about it.  Good quality tonewood doesn't necessarily have a distinct look.  Prettier woods get higher prices, but prettier woods don't automatically sound better.

Flaking happens - but it isn't a big issue either, just adds to the patina ^_^.  The antiquing on your violin is part of a 'fake' patina already.  The flaking is just part of the 'real' patina...

Labels in new violins, from new makers or factories are useful (given they haven't been messed with).  Labels from older instruments are of limited, or of no use.   Over the years labels have been removed, replaced with fake labels, etc.

16 hours ago, potatobutter said:

I've never heard of Vern's Violin Emporium. Where is that located?

It doesn't exist.  It was only a joke.

7 hours ago, Delabo said:

Looks like the consensus here thinks its a made yesterday Chinese antiqued violin.

Maybe the French bridge is a faked Chinese one. The other fittings look similar to the ones on the better quality Gliga violins.

No.  No consensus. ^_^  Not Chinese, not Gliga.  I'm not knowledgeable enough to explain the reasons why, but it doesn't look like either.  There are a myriad of other options, not sure why everyone keeps jumping on the 'must be Chinese' bandwagon...

Maybe it's a better quality 'Make in Czechoslovakia' instrument...

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I would be interested to hear why it can't be Chinese. I've seen instruments that look very much like this that I know were made in China. There are many producers in China making instruments of varied styles and quality, so why not this one?

 

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14 minutes ago, Craigers said:

I would be interested to hear why it can't be Chinese.

 

I would be interested to know why it should be chinese when it looks like a somehow "tradey" European post war violin.

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30 minutes ago, Rue said:

No.  No consensus. ^_^  Not Chinese, not Gliga.  I'm not knowledgeable enough to explain the reasons why, but it doesn't look like either. 

I made that post after Ratcliffidles more  or less said  that  it was Chinese. If he has run his flux capacitor time machine over it and pronounced it is not old who are we mere mortals to disagree !

That was my "consensus"  :lol:

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5 minutes ago, Blank face said:

I would be interested to know why it should be chinese when it looks like a somehow "tradey" European post war violin.

To me it goes back to the varnish. The varnish from post war European instruments though sometimes antiqued is different than this. If you look at pictures of the Collin Mezins from the 50's that you referenced the varnish is different, if you look at the antiqued Mougenot violins the varnish is different. The only instruments I've seen with this exact type of varnish are from China.

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13 minutes ago, Craigers said:

To me it goes back to the varnish. The varnish from post war European instruments though sometimes antiqued is different than this. If you look at pictures of the Collin Mezins from the 50's that you referenced the varnish is different, if you look at the antiqued Mougenot violins the varnish is different. The only instruments I've seen with this exact type of varnish are from China.

I don't think that it's Collin Mezin nor Mougenot, but (like Martin said, too) something more simple but educated and there are lots of varnishes. I can see only, zooming in the photos, that the surface is slightly crackled at some points and chipping off with a hard edge, as the OP described. This could be made virtually everywhere IMO.

Scrolling through Viaduct violins, for example, produces some similar instruments, but I'm not saying that it's necessarily french.

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On 11/28/2018 at 10:57 AM, jacobsaunders said:

What makes you think that?

I see the edge work, bottoming out a good distance inside the purfling, and the blackened pegbox interior. I doubt it being Chinese or French.

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On 11/28/2018 at 10:57 AM, jacobsaunders said:

What makes you think that?

I see the edge work, bottoming out a good distance inside the purfling, and the blackened pegbox interior. I doubt it being Chinese or French.

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9 hours ago, luthier said:

I see the edge work, bottoming out a good distance inside the purfling, and the blackened pegbox interior. I doubt it being Chinese or French.

I can't recognise any particular School, and think it could be made anywhere

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On 11/29/2018 at 3:51 AM, potatobutter said:

One question: is there something bad about modern Chinese violins? Reading all the huzzbuzz about this violin possibly being Chinese makes me think that there is something bad about Chinese instruments.

Thanks again all for your help, and cheers.

Potatobutter

The only 'bad' thing if it's Chinese would be that it won't be worth big bucks. Which is not really a problem in this case because if you can't establish provenance anyway you can't hope for big bucks anyway.

As for how much, uMmmmm, I don't do retail, but if it is a good violin, without proper attribution, ...help me out here guys, under $1000?  ;) 

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On 11/29/2018 at 2:51 AM, potatobutter said:

...

One question: is there something bad about modern Chinese violins? Reading all the huzzbuzz about this violin possibly being Chinese makes me think that there is something bad about Chinese instruments.

Thanks again all for your help, and cheers.

Potatobutter

When the Chinese first got into the violin market, they were mass producing violins that looked okay, but were poorly, and cheaply, made.

Since then,  they have produced better quality intermediate instruments that are absolutely fine, along with upper echelon instruments made by well trained and qualified luthiers.

However, that negative impact of the early violins seems to colour all the Chinese violins.

So, even though the intermediate instruments can be very well made - if you are buying a factory violin from China, it still might not have a very good set-up.  They don't seem to have quite got the hang of a good-set up, or it's just not financially worthwhile for them to do one, if buyers are just going to tinker with  or change the set-up regardless.

Off-side: the varnish and glues they use often times smell bad...eventually it wears off...

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On 11/29/2018 at 10:28 AM, potatobutter said:

I've included the best picture I can currently take of the interior wood.

Also, if you look at the three additional pictures, there seems to be some sort of dip on the inside of the purfling. I don't know if this could help with identification but I'm sure it wouldn't hurt to know. It's like roughly 11mm in width from the edge of the body inward. Notice how the light seems to end a little bit in from the purfling. Also, on the side profile, the tailpiece shadow seems curved. I've never seen this prominent of a feature anywhere else on violins until I got this violin. Most other violins I've looked at don't generally have a noticeable dip from the body to the edge or near the purfling.

 

I guess you're meaning the deep and extensive fluting or channeling at the edges when you say dip? That's right, a very unusual feature at a Guarneri DG copy. One could speculate that this feature is pointing to an East German or Czech (former Bohemian) origin of the violin (the inside pegbox blackening, too) where this was part of  some traditions, and together with the missing cleats at the bottom joint it makes a french origin very unprobable. But as described before, violin making traditions and features were spread all over the world in the second half of the 20th century.

 

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Hello again all. Sorry for being inactive, I've been busy. After taking in all of your comments and doing research, I've concluded that this could be an "Il Cannone" copy. The picture is the violin that I've found that gets closest to my violin is this one:

www.amromusic.com/products/milorichter44violinc

 

61016-18-2.jpg

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I'm glad you're doing some research! :)

You'll be hooked in no time!

However, whether or not it's a copy of a known violin is irrelevant to the price or value.

Violin "types" are a bit like Fords and Chevys. Some prefer the look/performance of a Ford, others prefer a Chevy...

And with violins it would be Stads and DGs...

 

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On ‎11‎/‎28‎/‎2018 at 10:57 PM, Ratcliffiddles said:

Totally with you on that one, I really don't think that's French or old.

I agree that it's a good bigger Chinese maker, from 1990s or even newer.

Reason, it's been properly sized, around the bouts, the wood is aged, apposed to kiln, maybe, but using an agent re agent to keep the dichromatic flame in a Frog red blushing red chippy fast drying weak spirit based varnish. Probably Uncle may have been a bit hazy, sorry luv, my Uncles wouldn't dare lie to me...but it's outside mould, sharply too thinned deeper ribs, measurements of the top front plate is bigger, looks about right, long pattern, too thinned on plates, scroll, not even champhered from the scroll making woman. The varnish looks rubbish and thin. I wish ppl would make thicker ribs, plates correctly and get the f holes higher aligned and use proper purfling, as in Ebony, sycamore, ebony. French have deep, well carved plates and scrolls, even they could be arsed to create an instrument that has power across the plates in the golden round, across the c bouts and deep, thicker varnish. Oh well, I would say it sounds hollow, bright and withered, without a good sturdy thick wide haired German bow.

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1 hour ago, Michael Appleman said:

Strads and Gel Gesus are like Fords and Chevys? Does that make the Maggini model the "Mopar" of violins, and Stainer copies the AMC Gremlin? Sorry, I know this doesn't really contribute to the discussion...;)

Sorry but what's a Mopar? My Dad bought a Skoda un 1984. It had go faster stripes even though the bodywork weighed the size of the Sun. It was red and had really great headlamps but it blew up twice and a lollipop for a gearstick with the volatile 100 cc engine in the back, so had to have sandbags in the front boot in a force 6 gale over the Thelwall viaduct (M62).

I've got a Mercedes Benz. That's about the same. But poor visibilty. It's. Red though so I could musicalise it by hanging aolian hanging bells from the rear view mirror and tape it onto BBC website easy listening for the overt nut jobs?... Reckon?

 

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