Best "Cheap" Violin Bow?

[rynthae]

Hey Everyone, I hope you guys are doing well!

I build violins, and have run into a bit of a predicament. A significant portion of my customers either do not have a bow (because they haven't played in years) or they have a plastic bow or something that doesn't match up well with the violins at all. I work really hard on cultivating the best sound in the violins, and I would hate for that sound to be lessened by a bad bow. Plus, I know how much difference a good bow can make.

To avoid customers pairing these violins with a bad plastic bow, I'd really like to be able to include a decent wood bow with the violin that won't compromise the sound (or playability). Because I want the violins to sound the best they can, I'm not charging extra for the outfit. With that in mind, can anyone recommend some of the best "cheap" (less than $100, though less than $50 would be better) wooden violin bows out there? I ordered one from Yinfente ($25) to try out, but wasn't completely satisfied with it. It wasn't terrible. The weight/balance wasn't quite what I like, but it was manageable. What really turned me off from it though was that it sounded tinny when playing, compared to my other bows.

I'm not interested in carbon fiber bows, only wooden ones. I've tried both and in my experience all of the carbon fiber bows I've tried sounded too tinny for my taste.

For comparison, at home I have two bows I do not like (one carbon fiber bow, one Glasser bow), a bow that is okay (stamped Grimm--produces a good sound but is a little cumbersome and the soft camber makes quick notes sound muddier, plus it takes a bit more energy to play with), and a bow that I absolutely love (a Kurt Dolling bow--lightweight feel, great balance, best sound).

I'd love to find something that is better than the carbon fiber and Glasser bow, and at least as good as the Grimm bow, ideally. The Grimm bow is okay. It's not great, but it sounds good and is a big improvement from the Glasser bow.

Any help or recommendations would be appreciated!

Thanks,

-Michelle

[Televet]

 

I can't point you in the direction of a supplier, but there are a surprising number of decent Korean student-bows knocking around in Canada at  $30 (Canadian) Retail. Long and McQuade,  'Canada's Music Store' has a seemingly inexhaustible supply of them and they seem to be very consistent. My daughter was recently in the market for a cheap travel bow and played all sorts of bows in the less than $200 range and settled on a $30 dollar Korean. In her opinion the Korean bows consistently out performed everything else she tried in the price range. For context she is a 14 yr old with 10 years of playing under her belt ans is not easily impressed!

 

Edited November 24, 2018 by Televet
spelling

[Guido]

In my experience wood bows under $100 or even under $200 are junk and outplayed in every aspect by a $50 carbon bow. Not what you want to hear I'm afraid.

If your customers are able to pay for a violin you made, they should be willing and able to afford a decent bow, too. Trying to not diminish the quality of your violin by giving them a $50 bow sound just bizarre to me. Unless you sell the violins you made for $150.

[rynthae]

2 hours ago, Televet said:

 

I can't point you in the direction of a supplier, but there are a surprising number of decent Korean student-bows knocking around in Canada at  $30 (Canadian) Retail. Long and McQuade,  'Canada's Music Store' has a seemingly inexhaustible supply of them and they seem to be very consistent. My daughter was recently in the market for a cheap travel bow and played all sorts of bows in the less than $200 range and settled on a $30 dollar Korean. In her opinion the Korean bows consistently out performed everything else she tried in the price range. For context she is a 14 yr old with 10 years of playing under her belt ans is not easily impressed!

 

I will look that up, thanks! I'd love to find a few reliable brands for students, so that helps a lot.

31 minutes ago, Guido said:

In my experience wood bows under $100 or even under $200 are junk and outplayed in every aspect by a $50 carbon bow. Not what you want to hear I'm afraid.

If your customers are able to pay for a violin you made, they should be willing and able to afford a decent bow, too. Trying to not diminish the quality of your violin by giving them a $50 bow sound just bizarre to me. Unless you sell the violins you made for $150.

Hi Guido, thanks for the input. I just got back recently from the VSA convention and had the opportunity to try a lot of bows while I was there (which was awesome!), and sadly the experience really only solidified my feelings regarding carbon fiber bows. In terms of playability, balance, and durability they are fantastic--but I really just don't like the type of sound they produce.

The Grimm bow that I have now was bought online for about $65--it looked pretty sad when I got it since someone had taken scissors to the bow-hair and it was missing a grip, but those were easy and cheap fixes and it is a decent intermediate wood bow. Not as agile as I like, but it does produce great sound. That's the benchmark I'm shooting for. If I have to, I'll look for more old fixer-uppers, but would prefer a less hit-and-miss method if there is one.

It's easy to think that customers paying a few thousand for a violin would invest in a good bow, but sadly so far that hasn't been the case. The girl I just sold one to had a Glasser bow, so I threw in one of the extras we had around the workshop, an old intermediate German wood bow. Unfortunately we've weeded through a lot of our old extras at this point. A good friend (Shayne) has recently expressed a lot of interest in buying one in January, and she hasn't played violin in about 8 years. She doesn't have a bow and doesn't know what to look for in one yet. Knowing that, I worry she'll run out and get a Glasser, and I'd rather provide something a little better than that.

Because Shayne is an old friend, I am offering her a healthy discount and a payment plan, plus I will be eating the cost of the outfit (case, shoulder rest, rosin, bow) personally, which somewhat limits how much I can afford to spend on the bow.

[carl1961]

this is the one I bought over a year ago and  use the most of many I bought, it had good reveiws so i took the chance and I am well pleased. it's weight is 60 gram and balances at  10 1/2" (266mm) has not lost any hair and stick is still straight, cost was about 32.00 a year ago

NEW 4/4 Advanced Elegant Pernambuco performance Violin Bow Natural Horsehair

 

 

I just ordered this one so I have yet to see is it's worth as a bow to give away. 

Pernambuco Violin Bow-Full Size 4/4 Octagonal Stick, Real Horse Hair Ebony

 

[Byrdbop]

4 hours ago, carl1961 said:

this is the one I bought over a year ago and  use the most of many I bought, it had good reveiws so i took the chance and I am well pleased. it's weight is 60 gram and balances at  10 1/2" (266mm) has not lost any hair and stick is still straight, cost was about 32.00 a year ago

NEW 4/4 Advanced Elegant Pernambuco performance Violin Bow Natural Horsehair

 

 

I just ordered this one so I have yet to see is it's worth as a bow to give away. 

Pernambuco Violin Bow-Full Size 4/4 Octagonal Stick, Real Horse Hair Ebony

 

The bottom bow looks identical to one that is included with a violin I am about to bid on in local auction on Monday. Looked well made.

[Rue]

I hear you about the CF bows...

FWIW, the violin I got from Yita several years ago now, came with a bow. I thought it would be a tomato stick, but its actually very good! Good enough I use it when I use the violin (it's my "outdoor" instrument).

You can bulk order from them. I presume not all the bows will be okay, but most should be.

However, I think that you might want to offer better bows in your shop as well. I don't think it's right to let customers underestimate the importance of a decent bow, it's a partnership between violin and bow.

[pjham]

6 hours ago, Rue said:

I hear you about the CF bows...

FWIW, the violin I got from Yita several years ago now, came with a bow. I thought it would be a tomato stick, but its actually very good! Good enough I use it when I use the violin (it's my "outdoor" instrument).

You can bulk order from them. I presume not all the bows will be okay, but most should be.

However, I think that you might want to offer better bows in your shop as well. I don't think it's right to let customers underestimate the importance of a decent bow, it's a partnership between violin and bow.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Ten-Brazilwood-Violin-Bows-Nickel-Silver-Ebony-4-4-1-32-Perfect-Bulk-Order/202345087720

From the perspective of a Primary school music program, I have found the Yita bows to be the most consistent in quality and sound.  They make a good "disposable" bow for beginners, I think much nicer than the cheap fibreglass or plastic bows.  For the price, they will give something to use while searching for a better bow.

 

[FiddleDoug]

15 hours ago, Guido said:

In my experience wood bows under $100 or even under $200 are junk and outplayed in every aspect by a $50 carbon bow. Not what you want to hear I'm afraid.

If your customers are able to pay for a violin you made, they should be willing and able to afford a decent bow, too. Trying to not diminish the quality of your violin by giving them a $50 bow sound just bizarre to me. Unless you sell the violins you made for $150.

I totally agree with that!!! I would take a $50 carbon fiber bow over a $50 wood bow without question.!

[FiddleDoug]

With the cost and restrictions on pernambuco wood, I seriously doubt that any of those cheap Ebay bows are pernambuco.

[Televet]

1 hour ago, FiddleDoug said:

With the cost and restrictions on pernambuco wood, I seriously doubt that any of those cheap Ebay bows are pernambuco.

I think that's a given, but they are not all terrible bows despite what one would expect.

[PhilipKT]

16 hours ago, rynthae said:

I will look that up, thanks! I'd love to find a few reliable brands for students, so that helps a lot.

Hi Guido, thanks for the input. I just got back recently from the VSA convention and had the opportunity to try a lot of bows while I was there (which was awesome!), and sadly the experience really only solidified my feelings regarding carbon fiber bows. In terms of playability, balance, and durability they are fantastic--but I really just don't like the type of sound they produce.

The Grimm bow that I have now was bought online for about $65--it looked pretty sad when I got it since someone had taken scissors to the bow-hair and it was missing a grip, but those were easy and cheap fixes and it is a decent intermediate wood bow. Not as agile as I like, but it does produce great sound. That's the benchmark I'm shooting for. If I have to, I'll look for more old fixer-uppers, but would prefer a less hit-and-miss method if there is one.

It's easy to think that customers paying a few thousand for a violin would invest in a good bow, but sadly so far that hasn't been the case. The girl I just sold one to had a Glasser bow, so I threw in one of the extras we had around the workshop, an old intermediate German wood bow. Unfortunately we've weeded through a lot of our old extras at this point. A good friend (Shayne) has recently expressed a lot of interest in buying one in January, and she hasn't played violin in about 8 years. She doesn't have a bow and doesn't know what to look for in one yet. Knowing that, I worry she'll run out and get a Glasser, and I'd rather provide something a little better than that.

Because Shayne is an old friend, I am offering her a healthy discount and a payment plan, plus I will be eating the cost of the outfit (case, shoulder rest, rosin, bow) personally, which somewhat limits how much I can afford to spend on the bow.

I agree totally.

wood.

Having said that, Chinese bows are now being offered in a wood called Ipe. I have no idea whether it’s any good but I’ve spoken to a few people who say it is a good alternative to Pernambuco. I constantly see pretty, silver mounted Ipe cello bows offered on EBay for 49.99, and have considered buying one just to see what I think.

I think the best solution to your problem is to just explain that a good violin needs a good bow and good bows cost good money unless they are lucky.

[Rue]

Ipe has been around a long time. 

I have an ipe viola bow. It's great. It's my 3rd favourite bow.

FWIW, I have accumulated a surprising number of (mostly cheap) bows over the years. Brazilwood, pernambuco, ipe, ironwood, snakewood...

But - as good as some of them are, none come close to my new best bow...

[rynthae]

Thanks for the recommendations everyone, all of this helps a ton!

15 hours ago, carl1961 said:

this is the one I bought over a year ago and  use the most of many I bought, it had good reveiws so i took the chance and I am well pleased. it's weight is 60 gram and balances at  10 1/2" (266mm) has not lost any hair and stick is still straight, cost was about 32.00 a year ago

NEW 4/4 Advanced Elegant Pernambuco performance Violin Bow Natural Horsehair

 

Thanks! I will definitely add that one to the list to check out, it sounds very promising, especially for students.

9 hours ago, Rue said:

I hear you about the CF bows...

FWIW, the violin I got from Yita several years ago now, came with a bow. I thought it would be a tomato stick, but its actually very good! Good enough I use it when I use the violin (it's my "outdoor" instrument).

You can bulk order from them. I presume not all the bows will be okay, but most should be.

However, I think that you might want to offer better bows in your shop as well. I don't think it's right to let customers underestimate the importance of a decent bow, it's a partnership between violin and bow.

Thanks, that helps a lot! I'll definitely look into Yita. It sounds like a great student option. We are working on offering better bows as well--just picked up a lot of 11 fixer uppers at auction that look very very nice, actually. It's where the Kurt Dolling bow came from, and that one plays like a dream. We just have to get them fixed up, first. We've mostly been consigning with music stores up to this point, but most of our sales seem to happen outside of consignment--so providing any kind of bows is relatively new territory. There are a variety of bows in all of the music shops we consign with, but since it seems like almost all of our sales happen without consigning, I think we'd better have a few dependable bows on hand.

3 hours ago, pjham said:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Ten-Brazilwood-Violin-Bows-Nickel-Silver-Ebony-4-4-1-32-Perfect-Bulk-Order/202345087720

From the perspective of a Primary school music program, I have found the Yita bows to be the most consistent in quality and sound.  They make a good "disposable" bow for beginners, I think much nicer than the cheap fibreglass or plastic bows.  For the price, they will give something to use while searching for a better bow.

 

Thanks for the tip! Seeing Yita suggested a couple times I will definitely be checking them out.

3 hours ago, FiddleDoug said:

I totally agree with that!!! I would take a $50 carbon fiber bow over a $50 wood bow without question.!

To each their own.  Sadly, I am just not a carbon fiber bow fan. I love the way they perform, hate the way they sound....

3 hours ago, FiddleDoug said:

With the cost and restrictions on pernambuco wood, I seriously doubt that any of those cheap Ebay bows are pernambuco.

That's okay! I've tried some pretty good bows made from different types of wood (haven't tried ipe yet). As long as it sounds good and plays well, that's what matters most to me. I was able to try a bamboo bow at the VSA this year which was really different! Very light, but nice and stiff--I actually really liked it. Good sound, good balance, good response.

1 hour ago, PhilipKT said:

I agree totally.

wood.

Having said that, Chinese bows are now being offered in a wood called Ipe. I have no idea whether it’s any good but I’ve spoken to a few people who say it is a good alternative to Pernambuco. I constantly see pretty, silver mounted Ipe cello bows offered on EBay for 49.99, and have considered buying one just to see what I think.

I think the best solution to your problem is to just explain that a good violin needs a good bow and good bows cost good money unless they are lucky.

I'll definitely check out Ipe bows! I've seen them mentioned a few times. I will definitely explain that, and I'd be happy to help her (or anyone else) down the road if they need a more advanced bow, though I think the violin itself is already pushing her budget to its absolute limit. I just want her to have something dependable in the meantime that doesn't butcher the sound.

31 minutes ago, Rue said:

Ipe has been around a long time. 

I have an ipe viola bow. It's great. It's my 3rd favourite bow.

FWIW, I have accumulated a surprising number of (mostly cheap) bows over the years. Brazilwood, pernambuco, ipe, ironwood, snakewood...

But - as good as some of them are, none come close to my new best bow...

Ipe sounds very interesting to me, I'm always curious about purnambuco alternatives and haven't had a chance to try that one out yet. I'll have to give it a shot!

[germain]

What do you consider cheap. 100 or 1000? Get the lowest end ARCUS bow such as Arcus Sinfonia and you will be set for life...

[PhilipKT]

1 hour ago, Rue said:

Ipe has been around a long time. 

I have an ipe viola bow. It's great. It's my 3rd favourite bow.

FWIW, I have accumulated a surprising number of (mostly cheap) bows over the years. Brazilwood, pernambuco, ipe, ironwood, snakewood...

But - as good as some of them are, none come close to my new best bow...

I have played a snakewood cello bow before and was surprised at how much I hated it. It was very heavy but extremely weak. It did nothing well, or even acceptably, and felt very bad into the bargain.

It would be fascinating to read a write up on your various bow woods and the individual characteristics. At the recent Tarisio auction were two expensive abeille cello bows. I don’t know whether that wood is any good, And wasn’t going to risk several thousand dollars to find out, but I would also like to learn about that wood.

finally, if you don’t mind sharing, what is your best bow?

[carl1961]

4 hours ago, FiddleDoug said:

With the cost and restrictions on pernambuco wood, I seriously doubt that any of those cheap Ebay bows are pernambuco.

I agree, often wondered that too.

[Michael Szyper]

On 11/24/2018 at 2:56 AM, rynthae said:

I build violins, and have run into a bit of a predicament. A significant portion of my customers either do not have a bow (because they haven't played in years) or they have a plastic bow or something that doesn't match up well with the violins at all

Since your customers pay thousands for a violin, they should be able to add at least a few hundres for a reasonable bow. I could recommend carbondix bows. For violin makers they offer significant discounts, so you could add the bows to the violin as a set for a reasonable price.

[BassClef]

On 11/24/2018 at 8:45 PM, carl1961 said:

I agree, often wondered that too.

It's akin to the $10 "Pashmina" scarves sold all over NYC. Pahmina is a blend of silk and Cashmere, nice try. 100% Pashmina suggests more than the style of scarf...

Can someone recommend to me the best quality 1/8 cello bow for $100 or under? Carbon fiber is just fine.

[Rue]

2 hours ago, BassClef said:

It's akin to the $10 "Pashmina" scarves sold all over NYC. Pahmina is a blend of silk and Cashmere, nice try. 100% Pashmina suggests more than the style of scarf...

Can someone recommend to me the best quality 1/8 cello bow for $100 or under? Carbon fiber is just fine.

I think most of the fractional bows Shar has are okay.   The little 1/32 I ordered is surprisingly nice.  It's an A. Schmidt, FWIW.

The 1/8th I have that came with a Chinese violin is also decent, maybe even a bit nicer than A. Schmidt.

Both are wood.

[rynthae]

On 11/24/2018 at 4:18 PM, germain said:

What do you consider cheap. 100 or 1000? Get the lowest end ARCUS bow such as Arcus Sinfonia and you will be set for life...

It's right in my original post (100 or less). Not looking for myself, and not looking for a lifetime bow or anything carbon fiber. I'm just looking for a starter wood bow that is better than Glasser and has a half-decent sound.

3 hours ago, Michael Szyper said:

Since your customers pay thousands for a violin, they should be able to add at least a few hundres for a reasonable bow. I could recommend carbondix bows. For violin makers they offer significant discounts, so you could add the bows to the violin as a set for a reasonable price.

They should, in a perfect world. Sadly, neither of the customers mentioned had thousands on hand. They are set up on monthly payments for two years because of this. In my experience, someone who needs a few months to save up for the downpayment (10%) just can't afford a good bow right away. I hope they do get good bows down the road, but I doubt it would be any sooner than the two-year mark. That's why I'd like to provide a somewhat reliable starter bow in special cases like these (when the customer has no bow, or has a Glasser/terrible bow.)

[giorgy]

On 11/25/2018 at 12:30 AM, PhilipKT said:

I have played a snakewood cello bow before and was surprised at how much I hated it. It was very heavy but extremely weak. It did nothing well, or even acceptably, and felt very bad into the bargain.

I think you were unlucky.
I have a number of budget snakewood baroque bows, designs ranging from "arrow" to fully convex; their playability compares well with baroque bows by some fashionable makers - only their appearance is more basic (they are all from the same source, so this may not apply more generally).  I also have a snakewood tourte-style cello bow; it is quite heavy, but also correpondingly stiff, and the tone colour is good.  But it's by no means my favourite, because pianos and spiccato are hard work - it comes in handy for the heavier repertoir

[giorgy]

On 11/24/2018 at 11:21 PM, Rue said:

Ipe has been around a long time. 

I have an ipe viola bow. It's great. It's my 3rd favourite bow.

FWIW, I have accumulated a surprising number of (mostly cheap) bows over the years. Brazilwood, pernambuco, ipe, ironwood, snakewood...

But - as good as some of them are, none come close to my new best bow...

Agreed - pernambuco is not 'the only wood'.   Indeed, assuming basically suitable wood (Pernambuco, Ipe, Ironwood, Snakewood) the maker's instincts/skill are probably the most important consideration.  However, Tourte developed his bow design around pernambuco, so this is what the majority of good makers use.
Equally, price also does not always mean everything when it comes to playing.   When I was last looking for a really good player's bow, I tried a range of bows (always try "blind", btw).  My favourite was a pernambuco Sartori that had split in the past - the repair would fail again, but it could be made permanently sound if you did not insist on "authentic" violin glues.  Halfway down the pile was the other Sartori pernambuco in perfect condition - definitely not the bow for me; the makers of the bows in between ranged from big names to those I had never heard of... 

[Woodland]

On 11/23/2018 at 10:51 PM, Guido said:

In my experience wood bows under $100 or even under $200 are junk and outplayed in every aspect by a $50 carbon bow. Not what you want to hear I'm afraid.

If your customers are able to pay for a violin you made, they should be willing and able to afford a decent bow, too. Trying to not diminish the quality of your violin by giving them a $50 bow sound just bizarre to me. Unless you sell the violins you made for $150.

I agree, don't waste your money on cheap wooden bows. In my experience they're just that, cheap. Wooden bows at that price point are seldom worth rehairing. In pretty short order the player is going to be tossing them into the bin, even with an ebony frog. Total waste of whatever wood they happen to be made from.

I work at a suburban Chicago violin shop and I'm very fussy about what I sell, even at the lower price ranges, as there's plenty to choose from.

This is my favorite bow under $100, surprisingly good:

https://www.gewamusicusa.com/item/a71n60/p_bows-violin-gewa/

[Aston4]

On 11/24/2018 at 1:42 PM, FiddleDoug said:

I totally agree with that!!! I would take a $50 carbon fiber bow over a $50 wood bow without question.!

I agree too.  The balance, weight, spring rate and overall responsiveness of the bow is one billion times more important than the initially thinner sound produced.  After a few minutes, a good player will compensate, and from a distance no listener is going to hear much of a difference, if any.