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Josep J. Ruiz

Vogler with 'archaic' scroll.

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Dear members,

Month ago I purchased for the violin of the photos. My first tought (before see in my hands) was the label is fake because the gluing, preservation and atypical calligraphy of the '44' in the year. Once examined with detail I change my opinion: the label is original, with contemporany paper and ink, surely re-glued after a restoration. Also I compared the instrument with this Vogler posted years ago. Althought mine is more elongated (feature typical of the maker), the f holes and the ribs and the end button looks similar, so I assume is original. My doubt now is about the strange partially carved scroll with not usual grafting, which I saw is called 'archaic' (no idea about its correct designation). Do you know any Füssen violin with this kind of scrolls? I saw some in photos of Testores and 'bohemian' violins but honestly I have to admit I know nothing of this kind of carving. Who could clarify something on the subject?

Another thing: Is the '546' written near the button a number from a collection? perhaps from an auction?

As always, many thanks in advance!

 

 

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Yes, this is the kind of response I wanted. Sorry if I not explained well my doubt. To me is very strange this kind of scroll so I asked because I didn't know if could be from Füssen school or not. A pity if not but I like the violin anyway. Sounds very well a regret of the cracks. 

Best regards!

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I found this similar scroll on a italian violin. The description says is not original from the sound box but is also very old. Is obvious the spiral of both looks different but the partial carving seems equivalent. Assuming the scroll of my violin is not from Vogler, could be from another region than Saxony and/or different date or in your opinion it could not? I'm curious to know which features can determine the origin and age of this scrolls. 

http://www.orpheon.org/OldSite/Seiten/Instruments/violine/Vl-brescian16.htm

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1 hour ago, Josep J. Ruiz said:

I found this similar scroll on a italian violin. The description says is not original from the sound box but is also very old. Is obvious the spiral of both looks different but the partial carving seems equivalent. Assuming the scroll of my violin is not from Vogler, could be from another region than Saxony and/or different date or in your opinion it could not? I'm curious to know which features can determine the origin and age of this scrolls. 

http://www.orpheon.org/OldSite/Seiten/Instruments/violine/Vl-brescian16.htm

To say it clearly, your violin is a revarnished and heavily repaired saxon instrument from roughly the first half of the 19th century; especially the purfling, beside other features is a clear evidence. The scroll could be slightly earlier, maybe from the ca. 1800 period, and is either saxon, too, or from the austrian Salzkammergut, where this kind of "arched upwards" pegbox rear was exclusively made.

The link you posted shows, as described in the text, an unidentified violin, most highly speculative ascribed to 1600 Brescian or to an Amati "contemporary", which it IMHO isn't, but also probaly of a much later Salzkammergut or even Saxon/Bohemian origin. The website claims since 2010 that they are waiting for a dendrochronological expertise what's telling enough about the reliability of their speculations.

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1 hour ago, Josep J. Ruiz said:

I found this similar scroll on a italian violin. The description says is not original from the sound box but is also very old. Is obvious the spiral of both looks different but the partial carving seems equivalent. Assuming the scroll of my violin is not from Vogler, could be from another region than Saxony and/or different date or in your opinion it could not? I'm curious to know which features can determine the origin and age of this scrolls. 

http://www.orpheon.org/OldSite/Seiten/Instruments/violine/Vl-brescian16.htm

I have a violin with a scroll like yours, with the original label "Johann Georg Gütter/violinenmacher 1780 in the cupboard, for instance. I would steer clear of the "Orpheon Foundation".

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Thanks for your replies!

55 minutes ago, Blank face said:

To say it clearly, your violin is a revarnished and heavily repaired saxon instrument from roughly the first half of the 19th century; especially the purfling, beside other features is a clear evidence. The scroll could be slightly earlier, maybe from the ca. 1800 period, and is either saxon, too, or from the austrian Salzkammergut, where this kind of "arched upwards" pegbox rear was exclusively made.

The link you posted shows, as described in the text, an unidentified violin, most highly speculative ascribed to 1600 Brescian or to an Amati "contemporary", which it IMHO isn't, but also probaly of a much later Salzkammergut or even Saxon/Bohemian origin. The website claims since 2010 that they are waiting for a dendrochronological expertise what's telling enough about the reliability of their speculations.

Yes, I noted the repairs and one of the images of the upper bout is taked to show the rests of the original varnish under the revarnishing layer. That's not the question for me but now inevitably I'm asking why is a label from 18th century in a 19th century violin? As is said, I initially tought seeing a single bad photo is the typical reprinted label put on an old instrument to simulate was made by a known maker but after examine with detail I'm quite sure the label is original or at least from 18th century (19th in no case). I was working during years in an antiquarian bookshop and I have an acceptable knowledge about old books and typography, and to me the label looks correct for the period. Is obvious than tha paper was reglued but considering its age I suposed is because the restoration (or one of the restorations) suffered the instrument. This is the reason I started thinking the violin corresponds wth the label. 

Of course I'm not rejecting opinion because you have much more knowledge about old violins than me (evident...). I'm only saying is very strange to get a saxon violin from early 19th century with non original but older scroll from the same origin and even older label. Seems a very convoluted hypothesis, perhaps with more simple explanation (a saxon one from 18th century?). Agree if I take more photos or measures if is possible to clarify more about the instrument? In this case, which parts showld be photographed/measured? 

Absolutely no idea about this 'brescian' specimen. Just shared to compare the scroll. 

45 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

I have a violin with a scroll like yours, with the original label "Johann Georg Gütter/violinenmacher 1780 in the cupboard, for instance

Could be good if I can see some photo. Only if you are able to take it. I don't want to disturb you. 

 

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9 minutes ago, Josep J. Ruiz said:

 

Yes, I noted the repairs and one of the images of the upper bout is taked to show the rests of the original varnish under the revarnishing layer. That's not the question for me but now inevitably I'm asking why is a label from 18th century in a 19th century violin?

Absolutely no idea about this 'brescian' specimen. Just shared to compare the scroll. 

 

 

Reg. the label, by the photos I can't see if it's really featuring 19th century properties (if you say, I think I'll trust you), but it looks so crumbled and full of glue that it was obviously switched over from another place, probably another violin. This was very often done, maybe from an irreparable damaged instrument or from a collection to "rebabtize" something else.

Seeing the state of the varnish, one could speculate that even the purfling was added later to replace a formerly inked line, so that your violin could be from the around 1800 period. A south German violin made in Würzburg 1744 should be constructed using an internal mould with linings morticed into corner blocks assymetrical longer in the outer bouts than the middle. This could be the first evidence beside things like model, ff or scroll.

Unfortunately there are so many unconfirmed "reference" instruments in the internet to find, so that one shouldn't trust opinopns given on a single website ever.

Here are photos of a Salzkammergut scroll (I posted the side view just in another recent thread before).

 

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Ok, so we the Füssen mid. 18th century way is deffinitely rejected. 

I taked two photos of the label but without open the sound box and without a good camera is quite hard to me photograph it. Seems was removed from the original possition and broken in several parts before glue again. I didn't tought about the possibility of reinsert the label from the original instrument to random violin but I know sometimes the unknown makers sign its violins as known author to 'upload the quality' of their production. Perhaps the label don't come from Vogler but from a german old maker who wanted to put a known name on his violin. It's possible? 

Glad to see some other scroll with this kind of finishing! I'm seeing yours is not grafted to a neck. In my case is grafted and with modified peg holes. Is this important to determine its age with more accuracy? I tell this because I heard from some luthiers the presence of grafting usually separe (more or less) the violins from 18th to 19th centuries. I supose this is not a fixed rule but I'm asking this (sorry if I'm insisting with my questions) just to know if the features indicate clearly the 19th century or there is the possibility of a 1780-1800 period. When I purchased for this violin I noticed the repairs, revarnishing and the suspicious label. I don't care if I don't have a Vogler, saxon is good to me also, but I have to recognize the intention to acquire just a genuine 18th century violin. Because this reason I want to know if there is a possibility of an older age or I have to accept deffinitely I was wrong purchasing for it. 

 

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29 minutes ago, Josep J. Ruiz said:

Ok, so we the Füssen mid. 18th century way is deffinitely rejected. 

I taked two photos of the label but without open the sound box and without a good camera is quite hard to me photograph it. Seems was removed from the original possition and broken in several parts before glue again. I didn't tought about the possibility of reinsert the label from the original instrument to random violin but I know sometimes the unknown makers sign its violins as known author to 'upload the quality' of their production. Perhaps the label don't come from Vogler but from a german old maker who wanted to put a known name on his violin. It's possible? 

Glad to see some other scroll with this kind of finishing! I'm seeing yours is not grafted to a neck. In my case is grafted and with modified peg holes. Is this important to determine its age with more accuracy? I tell this because I heard from some luthiers the presence of grafting usually separe (more or less) the violins from 18th to 19th centuries. I supose this is not a fixed rule but I'm asking this (sorry if I'm insisting with my questions) just to know if the features indicate clearly the 19th century or there is the possibility of a 1780-1800 period. When I purchased for this violin I noticed the repairs, revarnishing and the suspicious label. I don't care if I don't have a Vogler, saxon is good to me also, but I have to recognize the intention to acquire just a genuine 18th century violin. Because this reason I want to know if there is a possibility of an older age or I have to accept deffinitely I was wrong purchasing for it. 

 

I think all we can tell about the label and the reasons why it's there is speculative only.

To tell 18th from 19th century violins by a neck graft is a completely wrong assumption, as was repeatedly explained here. There can be many reasons to graft a scroll to another neck, it can be there from the beginning at modern violins or just a repair, an alteration etc.

The scroll I showed isn't grafted because the violin still had it's original through neck from the early 1800s period, but this kind of neck construction was used till ca. 1900 minimum, so it isn't an indicatior of age anyway.

It's also very hard to give an exact age to a violin altered so much like this. Given that the purfling is a later addition, it can be from 1780 as well as from 1840, styles didnÄt change much during this period in these areas. So why should it has to be 18th century at all?

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Well, I didn't ask to guarantie a 18th century age. Rather I asked about the possibility of a 18th century versus a sure 19th century age. As you said, if the violin is modified and the style of production was more or less the same during this whole period the age is only speculative. I supone I will never know the concrete age if the real experts like you can't tell but anyway many thanks for your clarifications. Now I know a little bit more about old violins and this is always good :)

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If you really have to know you can have a dendrochronology analysis done. It comes at a price that you may not want to invest into the violin but then you would have a reliable assessment of the age and possibly the origin. You can get some info on the subject here (and also a reputable provider of the service):

http://violin-dendrochronology.com/

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Many thanks for the info. I understand the dendro is for potentially high quality/historical instruments because the price of the analysis is not cheap. I don't really think my violin is included in these categories so I guess unfortunately dentro does not work in this case. 

I checked the post in which the photos of previous violin Blank face showed me are originally posted. According to Jacob, this kind of Salzkammergut violins decreases the quality during the first half if 19th century because the industrialization. Mine looks more accurately made in the scroll and the sound box than the other but I guess that indicates not necessarily a concrete age but just the accuracy. 

Also, I found this old saxony violin: https://www.bromptons.co/auction/5th-october-2009/lots/119-a-violin-saxony-circa-1700.html Obviusly is very different than mine but the scroll seems very similar. If there is original from the violin, it could be suggest an older age for my instrument but as is previously said this kind of reasonements are just speculative. 

Seems I have to admit the experts told me everything is possible to know about this instrument! :P My intention was send to restore a single re-opened crack and setup to play but after all the information I received I have serious doubts if it's worth it...Is almost playable but perhaps this is not enought to invest more money in it. 

 

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11 hours ago, Josep J. Ruiz said:

 

Also, I found this old saxony violin: https://www.bromptons.co/auction/5th-october-2009/lots/119-a-violin-saxony-circa-1700.html Obviusly is very different than mine but the scroll seems very similar. If there is original from the violin, it could be suggest an older age for my instrument but as is previously said this kind of reasonements are just speculative. 

Seems I have to admit the experts told me everything is possible to know about this instrument! :P

 

This type of instrument is regarded to be more from the mid 18th century in the reference literature (Seidel or Zoebisch), but without a genuine signature and date this might be also impossible to prove.

You might have noticed that 1) The purfling looks rather modern, so it started life most probably with an inked purfling, like it is common with this type of pegbox rear, and 2) That it was covered with a very dark varnish before, still visible in the plate edges and the inner windings of the scroll.

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Thanks again for the replies. I really appreciate your suggestions and patience. A pity if my purchasing looks now more modern than I tought but anyway I'm learning with each message so to me this is very possitive. 

I examined again the violin and I think I found the proves of the rather modern purfling you told me: the thin edges without the proper thickness to carve the purfling , the atypical corners and some big cracks with the purfling intact. These cracks are repaired so I think the purfling is made after the restoration of the instrument. (photos 1 and 2). 

Also I taked some more pictures showing the rests of original varnish. Seems the wear is not natural but removed with abrasive. I don't know is this dark colour is original or was more dark. Seems redish brown (photos 3 and 4).

Finally I taked some (bad, sorry) views of the interior (photos 5 and 6). I guess the harmonic bar is also changed but I'm not sure. 

Thinking about these kind of instruments didn't has purfling and the scroll is only partially carved...Is possible this makers try to imitate the Testore style? Of course I'm not suggesting the quality of both instruments is comparable but just remembering there are some Carlo Antonio Testore examples with very elongate sound box like mine, also with large and curved f-holes. I heard some of this kind of instruments without purfling are called 'fake Testores'. I guess the violin historians have investigated this topic but I'm curious if there is any relation with the Salzkammergut makers and Testore violins. 

 

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Hi everyone!

Months after my post about this violin I decide to give to a luthier to know if a setup worth or not. Fortunately all the cracks were restored time ago and the whole instrument are still stable so with a simple setup was enought to turn playable the instrument. 

I upload some photos to show the current aspect of the violin. A pity if is not possible to do accurate estimates on its age as you the experts told me but anyway I'm happy because the sound is powerful and good :) 

Thanks to all for helping me when I tought mistakenly it was a Vogler!

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Looks good! The back is curious, I have heard this called "Chicken Breast" style or something like that, can someone provide a little information on this style of back profile?

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Never heard about any of this names. In the first answers the experts explained me some things about this kind of violins but no particular mention to back profile. I hope someone provide information on this too. 

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