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tango

Flatening a plane

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21 minutes ago, Nick Allen said:

If you can find one who will do one-offs. 

We had one in SLC who not only did one-offs, but understood things well enough to construct a jig to mimic the tension of having the blade clamped properly in place..

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2 hours ago, Nick Allen said:

No. Just saying that a flat plane will flex as you use it. Getting a flat joint is as much technique as it is equipment. 

Once my husband had to make a cello center joint with a Bailey, a decent old plane, flat, etc., and he was having a hard time with it. His boss, who guarded his Lie Nielsen #7 like a hawk, went to lunch. You can guess what happened, maybe. It took, my DH reported, three strokes to make the joint perfect...from total frustrated almost-not-quite, to perfect. Sometimes it is more the tool than the technique. Knowing the difference can be even more frustrating than just thinking that the technique needs work. Reportedly. 

A Lie Nielsen #7 is not $30 at the antique mall, you know? :(

 

 

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23 hours ago, duane88 said:

You may find that the hollow is much less with the blade clamped into place. How tight the blade is clamped into place my have a significant effect on the sprung sole, so try to make it like you would normally use it.

Thanks Duane88

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Hi Tango - trying to flatten something by using sandpaper is an activity to try the patience of a saint.

Scraping is far quicker.

Here is a clip which covers the basics pretty thoroughly.

https://video.search.yahoo.com/search/video?fr=tightropetb&p=scraping+-+stefan+gotteswinter#id=1&vid=4fcf4b84e1fe3a9288756e1728b5022d&action=view

I bought a flea-market-plane with a crack at the mouth that had been repaired by brazing. After cooling, the area of the sole where it had been brazed had shrunk by about 0.4mm! This is not something to attack with sandpaper. 

I removed that 0.4mm shrinkage by scraping - getting the the sole flat. The plane now produces 15 micron (0.0006")  thick shavings.

You don't need any special equipment - a piece of 10mm scrap plate glass makes a good substitute for a granite surface, grind the end of a 300mm file to make a scraper, borrow some lipstick for the marking "muck".

cheers edi

 

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1 hour ago, Wood Butcher said:

Are they a bedrock, or bailey design?

3 bailey, one bedrock (LN). I was curious because the Baileys (#6, #4.5 Stanley, #5.5 Record, all pre-ww2) have all been flattened on a surface grinder with no correction made for the absence of a blade. They all work beautifully, just as well as the LN.

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I would guess that the design of the plane, and the actual materials would have A LOT to do with whether or not the sole deflects.  Bronze, iron, steel, ductile iron, will all behave differently, and there the pulling forces are on the clamp would make a difference.   Whether the surfaces where the  blade and the frog sits are flat would make a TREMENDOUS difference.  I would get them flat first. It those weren't right, and I can't believe that many ARE right, the sole may bend.  If they WERE right, everything might stay pretty flat.

I wonder how many guys have been checking their planes over the last couple days. I just checked my only metal flat plane; an 18" Craftsman with a couple of straightedges, and they all say that the area by the blade is higher.  I bought it at a garage sale at least 20 years ago, and a guy at work who liked planes trued the bottom up for me on a surface grinder.  I was going to do it, but he begged me to let him.  He ran grinders, and I mostly ran lathes, so I let him.  He might not have gotten it flat.  even clamping it down, and the magnets could mess with it.

Maybe I'll pick up a scraper.  

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I was taught that when fettling (tuning) a plane, the frog and all parts should be in place, and under tension. I got a piece of granite counter backsplash (checked for flatness), a couple of feet long,and glued it to a plywood base to use for planes. The key to using sandpaper type abrasive for this, is to get a really good grade of paper (I use Gator).  With a really good paper, you can work the plane on it, and literally dump iron powder off of it for several cycles before the paper wears out. Starting with an 80 grit, or so, and working up to at least 400 grit paper, doesn't take that long. Use a very light coat of spray adhesive to tack the paper down to the granite.

http://gatorfinishing.com/products/hand-sanding/9-x-11-sanding-sheets/9-x-11-premium-aluminum-oxide-sanding-sheets

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I feel like I'm missing out here.

My plane has no frog, it isn't even steel, it was second-hand when I bought it.
Other than sharpen the blade and oil the adjuster, I haven't done anything to it, yet it does centre joints perfectly.
I doubt it will pass an MN inspection however.

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The plane that I use to finish join,  (maybe the Craftsman isn't flat?)  doesn't have a frog, isn't steel or bronze, and doesn't have a chip breaker OR an adjuster.  And it works too.  It's just set up for such tiny slivers, it takes a while if the edge isn't really true already.

The Craftsman is heftier, and that keeps it from bouncing around when the wood isn't flat.  It gets things flat a lot faster, and more easily. The rosewood plane is harder to keep flat.

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3 hours ago, Dave Slight said:

I feel like I'm missing out here.

My plane has no frog, it isn't even steel, it was second-hand when I bought it.
Other than sharpen the blade and oil the adjuster, I haven't done anything to it, yet it does centre joints perfectly.
 

May I inspect your center joint? :)

I don't doubt that just about any ol' plane will do a decent job, given enough time, and skill working around the various deficiencies.

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I just happen to be truing up a couple old Stanley's today.  The Flatmaster works really well but wears out the sandpaper pretty quickly.  
I recommend wiping a bit of Renaissance Wax on when you're done.  It'll glide like a greased duck ;)

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15 hours ago, Ken_N said:

I would guess that the design of the plane, and the actual materials would have A LOT to do with whether or not the sole deflects.  Bronze, iron, steel, ductile iron, will all behave differently, and there the pulling forces are on the clamp would make a difference.   Whether the surfaces where the  blade and the frog sits are flat would make a TREMENDOUS difference.  I would get them flat first. It those weren't right, and I can't believe that many ARE right, the sole may bend.  If they WERE right, everything might stay pretty flat.

- snip -

Maybe I'll pick up a scraper.  

Hi Ken-N

"THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A RIGID BODY - EVERYTHING DEFLECTS UNDER A LOAD"

Getting the youngsters to believe that statement is one of the biggest challenges in mentoring them. Once they accept it they begin to crank out some decent designs.

I never had the chance of questioning  that concept. My Dad who was a Master Builder,  made my youth a happy time by teaching me how to care for and use hand tools. When I moved on to University and a career as a Mechanical Engineer, he handed over my training to his younger brother who was a Structural Engineer. Uncle Edo then made it his life's ambition to ensure that I knew the intricacies of designing with concrete and steel - where design starts by deciding on the allowable deflection. He was still at it when he died at the age of 94.

To anyone who questions the importance of taking deflections into consideration I would suggest that they pull a loop in an ASW 20  sailplane, then, during the pull out phase at the bottom of the loop,  make the mistake of taking your eyes from the straight-ahead position and glance sideways to the wingtip.

Shock and horror - it's not there!

After a pico-second of disbelief you locate it some 2m higher than the level-flight position - and now you begin to worry - when was the parachute last examined and repacked?

I can assure you that afterwards you have absolutely no problems with believing that there is a relation between load and deflection. 

cheers edi

'

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Ed, we're on the same page.  I didn't say that the sole wouldn't bend.  Just not as much as if the frog, and all the surfaces it attaches to weren't flat in the first place.  As a machinist turning hardened steel I can assure you that I can bend a 3/4" diameter CARBIDE boring bar just taking a .005"/side cut on the bore of  62 Rockwell M2.  If the bar is only 2 inches out, it might only deflect a tenth or so.  If it is 5 inches, it could be .005 or more, especially as the insert wears.  I might not cut anything at the back.

If you switch edges, you'd better back the bar off, or you'll make it oversize. Try it with a steel bar?  Good luck. You'll have to adjust all the diameters in your program.  They always seem to deflect more in the back, especially if the bore is smaller back there.

In my first example, you wouldn't expect a pretty solid, ground bar of steel to bend .001 just by tightening a dial indicator  ON THE TOP of it.  Would you?  It does.

648-8-200x200.jpg.9da35fa2007836c15f299e9924b09241.jpg

I even rough my tops and backs out inside and out, before I start finishing them.  They move, just like steel.  Stresses are relieved, and they bend.

 

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I upgraded mine back then with a homemade Hock chipbreaker; the old kind that they don't make anymore, with the removable tip.  Mine is made from 1/4" stock.  It feels like it is welded to the body.  I tried to find a picture of the Hock, and found an old post on maestronet that has a horrible picture of my version that I took.  It makes honing easy.  The post also talks a lot about Rob Cosman's site, and other blade options.

 

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2 hours ago, Ken_N said:

Ed, we're on the same page.  I didn't say that the sole wouldn't bend.  Just not as much as if the frog, and all the surfaces it attaches to weren't flat in the first place.  As a machinist turning hardened steel I can assure you that I can bend a 3/4" diameter CARBIDE boring bar just taking a .005"/side cut on the bore of  62 Rockwell M2.  If the bar is only 2 inches out, it might only deflect a tenth or so.  If it is 5 inches, it could be .005 or more, especially as the insert wears.  I might not cut anything at the back.

If you switch edges, you'd better back the bar off, or you'll make it oversize. Try it with a steel bar?  Good luck. You'll have to adjust all the diameters in your program.  They always seem to deflect more in the back, especially if the bore is smaller back there.

In my first example, you wouldn't expect a pretty solid, ground bar of steel to bend .001 just by tightening a dial indicator  ON THE TOP of it.  Would you?  It does.

648-8-200x200.jpg.9da35fa2007836c15f299e9924b09241.jpg

I even rough my tops and backs out inside and out, before I start finishing them.  They move, just like steel.  Stresses are relieved, and they bend.

 

Hi Ken-N - all sounds too familiar.

I have a  small lathe that has 0.008" wear over the bed in front of the chuck - it consistently turns nice tapers.

I have learnt to use the approach cuts to establish the spring-back of the speed/feed/tool/material, the amount of feed-in of the tool to offset the taper and the surface finish. Nice technique - I end up exactly to size.

That boring problem you mention - everyone blames the boring bar - poor thing it is innocent. It's the work that is deflecting way from the bar! The further you are from the chuck the greater the work-piece deflection and the lighter the cut.Try programming the machine to wind back the boring bar as it moves towards the chuck.

Machining M2 - I'd love to see that.

cheers edi

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Ed,

I tried to find videos of something like we do every day.  I just found this one.  It is kinda weird because the camera is looking down from the top.  O1 and not M2, but still 62 Rc.  

We generally finish M2, and other hard tools steels with ceramic, but sometimes CBN works well; like for interrupted cuts, or on long bores with a large length to diameter ratio.  

We do use carbide on long bores of softer steels 45-55 Rc because the insert geometry allows the bar to dig in more, and not push off as much.  You can control the chips better with the light cuts too. Shorter tools are usually done with ceramic. Short bores aren't a problem. You can do them in your sleep. The newer grades of carbide hold up really well, but not  on M2.  The heat kills them. Coolant only does so much. Ceramic can run dry, but we generally use coolant, especially on finish cuts.

The OD's are almost always done with ceramic. Boring is a different thing; especially since we need a 30 micro finish or better.  It is where the forgings are formed.  Bouncing (chatter) is the enemy.

Sometimes we need to take a 10 inch piece down to a 6 or 7 inch piece, and we'll take .200/side with a .001 feed and make big ribbons of glowing, molten steel. Fills a big hopper fast; or chokes the conveyer. A Ti coated ceramic holds up to that pretty well.

There is far more to machining than programming it, an touching off the tools.

 

 

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On 10/23/2018 at 4:00 PM, Ken_N said:

Ed,

- snip -. 

The newer grades of carbide hold up really well, but not  on M2.  The heat kills them. Coolant only does so much. Ceramic can run dry, but we generally use coolant, especially on finish cuts.

- snip -

Hi Ken-N

Thirty years ago I replaced the needle roller bearings in the aileron hinges of my glider. These had corroded and seized (due to an excessive mania for washing the glider) and had also worn longitudinal hollows in the single 6mm roller bearing element that acted as the axle. Removing and replacing the roller bearings had its moments but wasn't really a problem. The problem was grinding a 2mm deep x 4mm wide recess at one end of the 6mm dia needle. This recess gave clearance to the pop rivet end "bulge" that acted as the retainer.

I set up a pack of 4 abrasive discs in the Dremel and started grinding away. IIRC it took 1 1/2 packs and a half to cut just one groove - with 17 more to go! The discs just seem to ablate away - quicker as the diameter reduced. I looked at the partial canister of discs, went out and bought another canister. The next two grooves chewed up another 2 1/2 packs - things were looking costly - maybe I should have bought two or maybe three extra canisters of discs.

I gave it some thought and fired up the air compressor and aimed a blast or air onto the grinding disc/work contact area . It only took another two packs of discs to "groove" the remaining15 pins.

A 10x improvement in tool life, the work seemed to go quicker and the finish was definitely better. What's not to like?

Seems that a compressed air blast strips heat away from the tool/work contact area far quicker than a liquid coolant.

Try it out and let me know how it goes.

cheers edi

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The hard turning video is impressive.  So impressive that I ordered an inexpensive CBN turning tool... just to have one, because I don't have one now.  I doubt my 9" lathe in the garage would be up to the task of hard turning, and I'm not too keen on the idea of white-hot chips flying off the machine, igniting the piles of sawdust and wood chips I haven't cleaned up.

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Ed,

We use cooled compressed air on mills.  Eating chips is the fastest way to ruin your end mill. They work with no moving parts.  I'm sure some high speed mills have it built in. Compressed air goes in, cold air goes to the end, and hot air comes out the small hole on the side.  The tube can get hot. The knob controls split of pressure or cold.  Max cold gives less pressure.

Don, 

The chips WILL stick to the skin.  I've seen them mark paper with a burn, but not catch it on fire.  The heat dies off really fast.  It is cool to watch them twist and change color while they cool. A pipe smoker set a lathe full of plastic chips on fire one day.  That was cool, but it didn't last long.

1867492914_MMS-1117-b-vortex-1-b.jpgmax-width300.thumb.jpeg.fc107731c172e66552c2b941ae3cbf44.jpeg

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