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Guido

Markneukirchen $15k - $22k at Tarisio

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I don't see any reason why a JBV fetches 100-200k while the best grade of Heberlein (also hand made in a group effort with fantasy antiquing) only gets now at most 10-20k. 

There are some very underestimated makers in markneukirchen. 

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3 minutes ago, Andreas Preuss said:

I don't see any reason why a JBV fetches 100-200k while the best grade of Heberlein (also hand made in a group effort with fantasy antiquing) only gets now at most 10-20k. 

There are some very underestimated makers in markneukirchen. 

I appreciate that. I've got a nice Heberlein and a couple of wonderful 'modern Germans', which I find compare favourably to many modern Italians.

The price range for the Knorr just struck me because I haven't seen anything near $20k for 20th century Germans.

Knorr seems to go just under $10k at auction with a couple over and a record at $14k.

Probably just the trend that auctions are becoming retail offers.

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A 1920 Paul Knorr Plus a Friedrich brothers violin bow Sold at a different auction about two weeks ago for $5500. It appeared to be in excellent condition. A lot may have to do a advertising.

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4 hours ago, Guido said:

I appreciate that. I've got a nice Heberlein and a couple of wonderful 'modern Germans', which I find compare favourably to many modern Italians.

The price range for the Knorr just struck me because I haven't seen anything near $20k for 20th century Germans.

Knorr seems to go just under $10k at auction with a couple over and a record at $14k.

Probably just the trend that auctions are becoming retail offers.

Knorr was a wonderful maker and a very committed to his craft. He made some beautiful 'copies' using the techniques he had learned. Heard some interesting stories from violin makers in Markneukirchen when I was working there.

 

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Does anyone know of any 20th century German violin that sold at auction for over $20k?

I thought of Otto Moeckel, he got $18k once. Any other German maker up there in that class?

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36 minutes ago, Guido said:

Does anyone know of any 20th century German violin that sold at auction for over $20k?

I thought of Otto Moeckel, he got $18k once. Any other German maker up there in that class?

Michael Dötsch is listed at $20 000 in 2005, which should be clearly more if he would be auctioned today, and what could a Greiner get if it was auctioned?

I could think of some other Berlin makers like Riechers, Ludwig Neuner or Seifert being underestimated in the moment, but with a perspective.

https://tarisio.com/cozio-archive/price-history/?Maker_ID=1486

If the auction record for Knorr is 14 K yet, it's nearby to give a slightly higher estimation for a nice example. Unfortunately his brand is one of the most faked.

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I would also find the estimate to be extortionately expensive. I would never feel entirely comfortable authenticating a violin stamped PK, you can believe it or not. Neither do I find any “Berliner” violins generally undervalued whatsoever.

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20 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

 Neither do I find any “Berliner” violins generally undervalued whatsoever.

Nothing what would surprise me at all :D

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3 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

Getting stuck in Vienna, trying to market a Berliner violin sounds like an Albtraum to me:)

Something like selling a Hamburger in München?-_-

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3 hours ago, jacobsaunders said:

Getting stuck in Vienna, trying to market a Berliner violin sounds like an Albtraum to me:)

Violins from Italy made by mr. Hype always sell well.

If only Germans would be more proud of their violins made in the past..

Have you seen ever a violin by Johannes Hasert. It took me 3 month to figure out what the 'Carcassi' labeled thing was. Absolutely stunning Italian looking varnish and workmanship as Italian as you can imagine. Value in comparison to an average Italian of the same period? Guess! 

And then those copyists from the Berlin school. Wonderful work. Price compared to a Celeste Farotti who made copies as well?

Artur Voss! Just as good as a Voller.

The best joke is probably Giorgio Ulmann. Classical markneukirchen work and only because he spent some years in Italy some people think he was Italian. Is his work really better than other markneukirchen makers? But his example shows what value markneukirchen violins could have, had they only been made in Italy.

Hope that those makers who stand above the cheap German work get the recognition they deserve.

(Rant over)

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32 minutes ago, Andreas Preuss said:

 

Hope that those makers who stand above the cheap German work get the recognition they deserve.

(Rant over)

To be honest, the old Viennese are IMO the most undervalued, even in comparison to average Mittenwald.:mellow:

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2 hours ago, Blank face said:

To be honest, the old Viennese are IMO the most undervalued, even in comparison to average Mittenwald.:mellow:

yep. That's why no one dares to dig into instruments of the Carcassi workshop. Half of them have been made in Vienna. Lol.

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43 minutes ago, Blank face said:

To be honest, the old Viennese are IMO the most undervalued, even in comparison to average Mittenwald.:mellow:

Actually, fine 20th century American violins are the most under-valued. :)

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30 minutes ago, GeorgeH said:

Actually, fine 20th century American violins are the most under-valued. :)

..................................................................................(deleted for political content:ph34r:)

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1 hour ago, Andreas Preuss said:

If only Germans would be more proud of their violins made in the past..

If you compare the Hamma books about Italian makers and makers of the german school ( including the old Vienna school) - what do you recognize in handcraftly perfection of many things as often also shape- appearence ( sadly all black - white pictures ) ? 

Which was the reason, that the old-italian makers could get this admiration, they have until now ? 

I can see only these both things

1) better sound ( on the acoustical side )

2) better appearence by the great old-italian varnish/ground and often also more personal shapes ( which ca be fine in some cases or not so fine in other cases, surely depending on personal taste )

Sadly old-italian instruments are valued higher, even if they as an individual instrument don´t have neither nor. This is inequitable and I never would be so crazy to pay that way. Much more reasonable to buy a fine german-school instrument, even of Markneukirchen, when it sounds really fine. Sadly some Top-german-makers, located in regions with well-known factory-making suffer until now under the low-regards of the factory - making. This is also injust but can give good chance to get very fine instruments for moderate prices.

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Really sad.

As a matter of fact to fit the image of 'better appearence by the great old-italian varnish/ground' the really best instruments from the German school were humilated by taking out their labels and giving them the slave identity of a well known Italian name.

Johannes Hasert is not the only one.

Concerning perfection I never will understand that this becomes the golden glory in connection with Antonio Stradivari, Carlo Bergonzi, Pietro Guarneri Mantova and others and in connection with German instruments it becomes something like 'sterile work'. 

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2 hours ago, Andreas Preuss said:

Violins from Italy made by mr. Hype always sell well.

If only Germans would be more proud of their violins made in the past..

Have you seen ever a violin by Johannes Hasert. It took me 3 month to figure out what the 'Carcassi' labeled thing was. Absolutely stunning Italian looking varnish and workmanship as Italian as you can imagine. Value in comparison to an average Italian of the same period? Guess! 

And then those copyists from the Berlin school. Wonderful work. Price compared to a Celeste Farotti who made copies as well?

Artur Voss! Just as good as a Voller.

The best joke is probably Giorgio Ulmann. Classical markneukirchen work and only because he spent some years in Italy some people think he was Italian. Is his work really better than other markneukirchen makers? But his example shows what value markneukirchen violins could have, had they only been made in Italy.

Hope that those makers who stand above the cheap German work get the recognition they deserve.

(Rant over)

Andreas, We could argue or rant like this 'till the cows come home. Logic doesn't have much to do with it. I generally take issue with those who speak of “German” violins, since there were many different schools of making in what today goes as “Germany”. One might just as well speak of European violins, it would mean just as much.

 

The “Knoor” that I have seen to date, seemed to me to be 1a Markneukirchen violins, made out of the usual “bits”, in line with the practice of the time. As such I have never been able to identify any particular personal note, to separate them from other equally good makers of the place and time, except for the stamp “PK”, which seems tempting, since I have a whole alphabet of stamps somewhere. Since Vienna has been mentioned, one should realise that there were contemporaries of Knoor, such as Kaltenbrunner for instance, who made truly wonderful violins by hand, rather than from Markneukirchen bits. Since one produces more violins by using “bits” Knoor made enough to be a name that rings a bell by Anglo-Saxon auction houses, although if the aforementioned “logic” was worth anything, a Kaltenbrunner would surely be more valuable, but he simply isn't known. Since you spoke of “hype”.

 

Since BF spoke of Berlin instruments; I have never found the so called “Berlin School” particularly impressive. In the 20th C for instance it seems to consist mostly of immigrants from Markneukirchen and a different group from Mittenwald (& Austria) along with a few that weren't really either. Berlin today, considers itself important, as capital city and Berliner Philharmonic and so on, although viewed historically it wasn't really such an important centre. I can't really think of any 18th C. composers from there really, and in the 19th. C, places like Meiningen were probably of more significance.

 

Similarly, the US was, during the founding period of classical music and violin making, a frontier society, and only had an immigrant or amateur violin making tradition in the 19th & 20th Centuries. Sorry folks!

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Ok, there I completely agree, German school is simply too broad as an expression to specify anything. We should go more in details.

Concerning Paul Knorr, he got at least a few ideas which distinguish him clearly form the majority of Markneukirchen makers. One of the features I can remember from the top of my head is that he used pins in the back, a feature you won't see on 95% of Markneukirchen made instruments. He was doing a better antiquing as well with a very good instinct or the entire balance. If he worked from prefabricated parts, I don't know. But why should we take this as a factor for diminishing the grade of individuality while no one would say this for French instruments. There are a few individual makers in France who had a large output and they most likely worked from pre-fabricated parts from Mirecourt as well. If you ask me for a name, I would say Pierre Hel is a suspect. (Or maybe they didn't even make the instrument themselves?) I often can't get rid of the feeling that the market economy of violins applies different and unfair measures of evaluation to the different schools. Don't you think so? 

I have visited the exhibit of Berlin instruments years ago and remember a few names which were clearly standing out. The mentioned Arthur Voss and Matthias Mehne who had a kind of charming Italian sloppiness in his work. Should we really push them down just because the rest of the crowd was not so impressive or too uniform? 

On the other hand would anyone dare to knock down the late period work of Joseph Rocca? Those instruments cheaply made (prefabricated parts?) with Shellack varnish and not any more the kind of Rocc(a)ing thing he made in his younger days. This doesn't impress me either. 

 

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