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Teela Pongpakdee

Can anyone help translate/read this?

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Looks like old Gernan to me:

Gedeckelt von Johann / Hulb (or Halb) in Karlburg/ 1720

In old German 'gedeckelt' means to close a lid. If the writer meant by that that he made the instrument is not entirely clear. At least I don't know any violin maker by the name Halb or Hulb. 

Karlburg seems to be a village at the main river.

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I noticed that the ink in the date appears different from the rest, that the writing of the whole is “Italian/business hand,” and is likely later than the alleged late.

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Johann Halhoven or something like that? Looks like some lost letters behind «Halh..», and not likely to be l, f, or s in it. Also it’s clearly a h, not a b.

 

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Since old German „U's“ have a line or squiggle above them, to help differenciate between all the vowels, one may say with confidence that the name is „Huth“ (i.e. Mr Hat)

 

An almost certainly frivolous thought came to me, since the South German colloquial „Deckel“ means belly, so that with the prefix „Ge“, this would make it into “bellied” which makes one think of the frightful Ebayspeak like “Blocked” or “Cased”. I know that this is improbable, but it would still wake a reflex in me, to check if the instrument has it's original belly or not.

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1 hour ago, jacobsaunders said:

Since old German „U's“ have a line or squiggle above them, to help differenciate between all the vowels, one may say with confidence that the name is „Huth“ (i.e. Mr Hat)

 

An almost certainly frivolous thought came to me, since the South German colloquial „Deckel“ means belly, so that with the prefix „Ge“, this would make it into “bellied” which makes one think of the frightful Ebayspeak like “Blocked” or “Cased”. I know that this is improbable, but it would still wake a reflex in me, to check if the instrument has it's original belly or not.

Wouldn't old German handwriting rather look like this?(not sure if I got the capital K right)

 

image.jpeg

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Yeah, “old German” handwriting developed through the ages, and I agree that the capital “K” doesn't seem to match with this https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsche_Kurrentschrift#/media/File:Deutsche_Kurrentschrift.svg

 

Some things, like the line over an “u” seem to have prevailed eternally though. They also had a different alphabet if they (thought they) were writing Latin words. People more expert than me can roughly date handwriting. Here is an example from the late 18th C

Fichtl Ansuchen.jpg

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19 hours ago, Andreas Preuss said:

Looks like old Gernan to me:

Gedeckelt von Johann / Hulb (or Halb) in Karlburg/ 1720

In old German 'gedeckelt' means to close a lid. If the writer meant by that that he made the instrument is not entirely clear. At least I don't know any violin maker by the name Halb or Hulb. 

Karlburg seems to be a village at the main river.

Maybe he means that he replaced the front, looking at the front as a Deckel?

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The writing reminds me more of the style seen at this 19th century (1875?) repair label sort of mixture between Kurrent and "latin". Not exactly the same, but to show what was possible.  Probably the person replaced the belly, as mentioned before. If this is lost meanwhile, it was possibly of an inedaquate quality.

voit repair.JPG

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47 minutes ago, uguntde said:

Maybe he means that he replaced the front, looking at the front as a Deckel?

 

47 minutes ago, uguntde said:

Maybe he means that he replaced the front, looking at the front as a Deckel?

To know this @Teela Pongpakdeewould need to provide pictures of the instrument.

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1 hour ago, jacobsaunders said:

Yeah, “old German” handwriting developed through the ages, and I agree that the capital “K” doesn't seem to match with this https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsche_Kurrentschrift#/media/File:Deutsche_Kurrentschrift.svg

Thanks, Jacob. Need to fake more old German labels to stay in training. :rolleyes: lol.

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2 hours ago, jacobsaunders said:

Since old German „U's“ have a line or squiggle above them, to help differenciate between all the vowels, one may say with confidence that the name is „Huth“ (i.e. Mr Hat)

 

An almost certainly frivolous thought came to me, since the South German colloquial „Deckel“ means belly, so that with the prefix „Ge“, this would make it into “bellied” which makes one think of the frightful Ebayspeak like “Blocked” or “Cased”. I know that this is improbable, but it would still wake a reflex in me, to check if the instrument has it's original belly or not.

But there is no squiggle over u in Karlburg and the letter in the na,e looks clearly like an a. Hath or Häth. Admittedly, this would be a strinage sounding name though. The script is also not a cear altdeutsche Schrift, but a mix of the same and Druckschrift.

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9 minutes ago, uguntde said:

But there is no squiggle over u in Karlburg and the letter in the na,e looks clearly like an a. Hath or Häth. Admittedly, this would be a strinage sounding name though. The script is also not a cear altdeutsche Schrift, but a mix of the same and Druckschrift.

Yeah, a bit strange, I agree. Perhaps Andreas has been practisingB)

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There's resp. was another Karlburg near to Bratislava/Pressburg https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rusovce with a german speaking population in the past.

The violin according to the photos posted in the meantime looks more like from the Saxon/Bohemian origin, so there's a certain probability that the Karlburg meant here is the more eastern, not the south german. This could explain the special style of the handwriting, too. At least it would be interesting if the OP is located somewhere near to Bratislava/Slowakia/Hungary?

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10 minutes ago, Felefar said:

So it could be a Hungarian name then, with or without faded letters - Hathory? Halh... 

Makes some sense as the last letter of that name could be an ü. Hath..ü, could also be Häth zu Karlburg. The name Johann is as German as it gets, but also known as a Hungarian name. http://magyarnevek.com/nevek/ferfinevek/J

In their list starting with H http://magyarnevek.com/nevek/ferfinevek/H nothing Hungarian suits your label.

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I have just discovered the photos of the fiddle

It would seem to be a straightforward Klingenthal violin that someone has stripped and re-varnished, and certainly some 100 years younger than the 1720 on the (bogus?) label

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On 10/16/2018 at 5:37 AM, Blank face said:

There's resp. was another Karlburg near to Bratislava/Pressburg https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rusovce with a german speaking population in the past.

The violin according to the photos posted in the meantime looks more like from the Saxon/Bohemian origin, so there's a certain probability that the Karlburg meant here is the more eastern, not the south german. This could explain the special style of the handwriting, too. At least it would be interesting if the OP is located somewhere near to Bratislava/Slowakia/Hungary?

Nope, I live in Socal very far away from there but thanks for the insight, it's a question that's been plaguing me. Not bad for a $75 buy!!!

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