Violin ID (again)

[zhiyi_zhang617]

Hi experts at MN,

I had this one for quite sometime. It was told as a French when I bought it, I hope some of you would provide insights on the attribution.

Again, all 4 corners were blocked with linings going into the blockers, the fluting of the scroll ends at 8 o'clock, almost to the very end (9:00 o'clock).

The back inside appears to be stained with some sort of the reddish paint (as shown in the last photo).

Thank you and have fun!

[Jeff White]

I'm goin out on a limb...but that looks like Chinese to me.

[deans]

The finish reminds me of the Jay Haide line.

[zhiyi_zhang617]

Thanks, Jeff and Deans.

I always have some doubt for this one.

It sounds reasonably nice, on the smooth and mellow side.

Maybe someday I should start to unload my collections.

[BassClef]

56 minutes ago, zhiyi_zhang617 said:

Thanks, Jeff and Deans.

I always have some doubt for this one.

It sounds reasonably nice, on the smooth and mellow side.

Maybe someday I should start to unload my collections.

What else is in your collection?

[FoxMitchell]

3 hours ago, Jeff White said:

I'm goin out on a limb...but that looks like Chinese to me.

...my thoughts too!

And the label was put there after it was closed and varnished.

[matesic]

11 hours ago, FoxMitchell said:

And the label was put there after it was closed and varnished.

Seems like a dead giveaway. Although I once bought a finished violin in Florence, having watched the maker stick a label through the f-hole. The label said so-and-so "fecit in Munich" and was designed to fool the customs men. Back home I had a luthier take it out again and uncover the real one.

[FoxMitchell]

10 hours ago, matesic said:

Seems like a dead giveaway. Although I once bought a finished violin in Florence, having watched the maker stick a label through the f-hole. The label said so-and-so "fecit in Munich" and was designed to fool the customs men. Back home I had a luthier take it out again and uncover the real one.

Crafty!

[uguntde]

Where would the red varnish drops on the inside come from? It doesn't look as if the varnish had been sprayed on.

[zhiyi_zhang617]

2 hours ago, uguntde said:

Where would the red varnish drops on the inside come from? It doesn't look as if the varnish had been sprayed on.

It is my question too.

The red drops stained on the back inside were unlikely caused by spray as all the area I can see through the f-holes is covered by such red drops.

[PhilipKT]

On 10/7/2018 at 3:06 PM, FoxMitchell said:

...my thoughts too!

And the label was put there after it was closed and varnished.

How can you tell?

[germain]

Downtown Beijing...

[zhiyi_zhang617]

So far, no one has commented on the quality of the instrument.

As held and played it, I indeed appreciated the detailing and varnish, it is much more attractive with darker varnish (thus an antique feel) in your hands than it appears in the pictures attached, which is shining and unsophisticated. I am surprised for the marked distortion of the pictures.

For instance, the scroll was very carefully and deeply carved, with a strong personality (e.g., very long eyes tilting upwards), which, IMHO, was not seen in the Chinese instruments, and indeed atypical in general. The high-end Chinese (BTW, I have two Snows of professional grade) are also very well hand-made, but with the scrolls of standard measurements for the copies they are intended to be.

[GeorgeH]

2 hours ago, zhiyi_zhang617 said:

It is my question too.

The red drops stained on the back inside were unlikely caused by spray as all the area I can see through the f-holes is covered by such red drops.

It could have been on a nearby bench with the top off while another violin was being sprayed nearby..

[zhiyi_zhang617]

After seeing some scrolls for JBV on the Tarisio website (https://tarisio.com/cozio-archive/cozio-carteggio/the-sun-law-vuillaume/).

I now do believe it is indeed a JBV copy.

[FoxMitchell]

2 hours ago, PhilipKT said:

How can you tell?

The splatter of red on the wood. Normally the label is put in before closing the violin, and normally violins aren't varnished before closing, which means the label would be splattered too if it had been put in in that order.

So that label must have been put in either through the F-hole after the violin was finished or the violin was opened after it was varnished and the label was added then.

[germain]

52 minutes ago, FoxMitchell said:

The splatter of red on the wood. Normally the label is put in before closing the violin, and normally violins aren't varnished before closing, which means the label would be splattered too if it had been put in in that order.

So that label must have been put in either through the F-hole after the violin was finished or the violin was opened after it was varnished and the label was added then.

True that... 

[PhilipKT]

1 hour ago, FoxMitchell said:

The splatter of red on the wood. Normally the label is put in before closing the violin, and normally violins aren't varnished before closing, which means the label would be splattered too if it had been put in in that order.

So that label must have been put in either through the F-hole after the violin was finished or the violin was opened after it was varnished and the label was added then.

 Well done, I am impressed.

[matesic]

Looks like that label could come out as easily as it went in. To protect their legacy shouldn't makers use a real glue, like Gorilla?

[zhiyi_zhang617]

9 hours ago, FoxMitchell said:

The splatter of red on the wood. Normally the label is put in before closing the violin, and normally violins aren't varnished before closing, which means the label would be splattered too if it had been put in in that order.

So that label must have been put in either through the F-hole after the violin was finished or the violin was opened after it was varnished and the label was added then.

It is truly sound.

Again, I have learnt a lot as the conversation flows.

Thank you all for the insights!

10 hours ago, zhiyi_zhang617 said:

After seeing some scrolls for JBV on the Tarisio website (https://tarisio.com/cozio-archive/cozio-carteggio/the-sun-law-vuillaume/).

I now do believe it is indeed a JBV copy.

I attached a few more photos, which are less color-distorted (still somewhat more "plastically" shining than it is).

Notwithstanding, the interesting, J B Vuillaume-like, scroll, especially the shape of the eyes, are clearly shown in some of these photos.

The label is thus not completely nonsense.

To my very limited knowledge, I don't recall I have ever seen a Chinese copy of Vuillaume.

In addition, I somehow have not yet encountered or seen a Chinese violin as reddish as this. A Snow and a Jay Haide-like violin I have are yellow/orange, and the other Snow is orange on amber ground. I hope the experts at MN will correct and share the knowledge with me.

[reg]

I have a new Chinese violin almost identical in colour and design - they come unlabelled in various qualities, and the dealer puts his on label in! They are very often good value for money

[Nicolas Temino]

Yes, looks like a well made factory chinese one. 

[FoxMitchell]

An issue with the JBV hypothesis is that the label looks waaaay too new and fresh. The paper should be aged noticeably for a violin of that age.

Something relatively simple you can do however is to get a dentist mirror and a flashlight, and take a peek inside. Vuillaume signed his violins on the treble-side upper bout on the back plate with a rather flamboyant scribble. Also more often than not Vuillaumes have the name 'VUILLAUME' stamped somewhere inside the violin. And a 'serial number' hand-scribbled near the upper block (and special ones had dedicatory and other graffiti inside - they really liked to scribble inside their violins). 

[zhiyi_zhang617]

1 hour ago, FoxMitchell said:

An issue with the JBV hypothesis is that the label looks waaaay too new and fresh. The paper should be aged noticeably for a violin of that age.

Something relatively simple you can do however is to get a dentist mirror and a flashlight, and take a peek inside. Vuillaume signed his violins on the treble-side upper bout on the back plate with a rather flamboyant scribble. Also more often than not Vuillaumes have the name 'VUILLAUME' stamped somewhere inside the violin. And a 'serial number' hand-scribbled near the upper block (and special ones had dedicatory and other graffiti inside - they really liked to scribble inside their violins). 

Unnecessary for such an effort as it is of zero probability to be a genuine Vuillaume, and I never thought it could be possibly one regardless whether there is any mark inside.

I just want to point out it does appear to be, consistent with the label, a copy of Vuillaume, especially the scroll, and likely not a very shabby copy. That's all.

Thank you for the responses I received; I know my violin much more now due to the knowledge you all shared with me!

I guess this is what the ID forum for, isn't it?