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PhilipKT

So exactly what IS the minimum value for a good factory instrument?

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1 hour ago, David Burgess said:

Wouldn't the minimum value of a factory instrument be zero? Or even in the negatives, if the cost to put it in decent playing condition exceeded the selling price?

It could be even more in the negatives, when you regard compensation for hearing it. You see, sound matters all the time.:)

I am often shocked, how cheaply nice violins can be acquired. E.g. this Ainé :

https://tarisio.com/auctions/auction/lot/?csid=2198847488&cpid=3519463424&filter_key=

To play this violin in a professional orchestra wouldn´t be a problem optically - may be a little varnish fresh-up on the scroll could be nice, but condition seems not to be a big problem  (£1,500–2,200 price estimation ).  The probability of fine sound is according to some "experts" here the same as in a fine G.B.Guadagnini of > 1M !  -_-

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7 hours ago, Danube Fiddler said:

The probability of fine sound is according to some "experts" here the same as in a fine G.B.Guadagnini of > 1M !  -_-

I don't know from where you did take this odd consideration?

But you didn't answer how you would verify that any sound (incld. your assumed 15 000 DM amateur violin) is "the same" like a fine Guadagnini? How many top players in how many different locations would be necessary to prove it, how long would be the time of playing, with orchestra, quartett, piano or solo, how many audience? Who would have the final decision, and what would qualify this person(s)?

So you are talking the whole time about sound, I'd like to hear something more clear and precise about it.

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This is interesting... I come from mandolin making world and some things are somewhat different there.

Sometimes tha dealers put even too much emphasis on tone alone. Last year very well known dealer listed instrument by new unknown maker (he claims some instrument history but even google could not find anything older) that caused quite a buzz on mandolin related internet forum as the price was set ridiculously high just because the dealer said the thing sounds unbelievably and few big name pro musicians who tried it agreed. He skipped the price tags of many seasoned builders (and well accepted by pro musicians). But we haven't heard of him since then....

I sold one older instrument by local living maker for a bit more than new one would cost (and there is no unreasonable waiting list for the maker to allow for such) because he just had to have that particular instrument (that used to be my personal one) as he loved the tone... he knew it all but wanted it so badly.

I think there is reasonable range for each maker/factory  or his certain periods or instrument level based upon more than just one factor and anything too far off is ridiculous. There are Mittenwald instruments that were built at master level and instruments that were low quickly made instruments. Same for modern factories. There may be one from the lower end that is better sounding than some of the higher grade from same factory but asking price like that for the higher grade just because of tone is flawed as you can certainly find many other higher level instrument with that tone or even better if you look around for a while as  there are loads of similar instruments being offered for sale.

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55 minutes ago, Blank face said:

I don't know from where you did take this odd consideration?

The "little club" ( you are also a member" ? ) claims, that sound is not paid, has no monetary value. Then the price-difference of ~ 1M between  this nice Ainé- violin and a fine G.B.Guadagnini will not be because of sound. Therefore there wouldn´t be any reason to expect a higher sound-quality of the Guadagnini.  If there would be any significant statistical correlation between sound and price, you would have to pay for sound-quality ( or against sound, if correlation should be negative), even if the relation is not causal. The "little club" tells, there is no correlation ---> the sound expections about very expensive instruments and very cheap ones must be the same.

1 hour ago, Blank face said:

But you didn't answer how you would verify that any sound (incld. your assumed 15 000 DM amateur violin) is "the same" like a fine Guadagnini? How many top players in how many different locations would be necessary to prove it, how long would be the time of playing, with orchestra, quartett, piano or solo, how many audience? Who would have the final decision, and what would qualify this person(s)?

So you are talking the whole time about sound, I'd like to hear something more clear and precise about it.

You didn´t ask me that until now. I much more got the impression, that you and some few others would be very happy, when I would not speak about sound -_-.

1) I think to remember not to have spoken about "amateur violins" but factory violins - however mainly meant violins without particular object-value but presentable optical appearence.

2) sound-evaluation is not easy - this just is the reason, why the "little club" dreams of to ignore it

3) While your suggestions about sound - evaluations are quite reasonable, they are not completely realistic. However some fine players, different locations, some time in orchestral playing and chambermusic, solo if possible,  at the best in real concert situations with filled halls should be done and often are possible, if you are a professional musician. This always has to be done, even if the instrument has a clear object value by a clear attribution to a great maker. 

4) Because sound-evaluations are so difficult, the resulting "sound-value" has to be regarded as a thing of big uncertainties and therefore must be limited in its monetary expression. Exactly because of this the historical sound-evaluation ( expressed in the attributional value of a violin ) extremely exceeds  a presently done own evaluation. Exactly because of this the pure "sound-value" ( sound at the moment of an individual instrument, evaluated in a quite limited way by only few persons ) is monetary very limited. If this limitation should be set on 15.000 $ in the case of an unattributable instrument or otherwhere is a decision , which surely includes uncertainties, but will mainly be done by the market itself, in which the musicians naturally play a big role. If this limit actually is at 15 k or only at 5k  or even at 50k  - I don´t know it -   I am not participant of the trade. However I remember some cases, in which dealers tried to get until 100k for instruments without a personal attribution ( only old-italian origin and eventually school were probably  ).   Finally my personal opinion is, that in a market of " historical sound-values" up to 20 M at the moment a "pure sound-value" of 10 or 15 K seems not to be a big thing. It would mean a relation of 1:1000 !  

5) If one can´t accept the risks of the 15k-sound value claim - he should think about the risks in the trade with attributable violins of "high origin" - these risks are much, much higher, as you all know.

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37 minutes ago, Danube Fiddler said:

The "little club" ( you are also a member" ? ) claims, that sound is not paid, has no monetary value.

The little club is rather more than a few members of this forum,it is every dealership and auction house  across the globe. They all price their instruments the same way. Its pretty simple how they price.

1. Rarity/ Desirability

2.Condition/Genuine original label

3.Provenance

4.Sound

Could you show an auction house or dealership anywhere that prices differently ?

 

 

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On 10/12/2018 at 5:24 AM, Danube Fiddler said:

This is not the point - people always want to have things cheaper - this is a genetical program. Has nothing to do with our topic. The question is, what the musician will do, if you or anybody other asks 16 K for this fantastic sound and otherwise will not sell the violin. What the musician will do, knowing all facts and risks ? He will buy this instrument ( provided he and some important ones of his collegues also evaluate the sound in extended test as so outstanding as described by you ). And then is stated, that this instrument is worth at least 16 K, probably even much more.

IMO, if someone had  to get "collegues" to help  him evaluate the sound quality, he is making a poor decision. Either he loves the tone or he doesn't. Who cares what they  say?

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6 minutes ago, Delabo said:

The little club is rather more than a few members of this forum,it is every dealership and auction house  across the globe. They all price their instruments the same way. Its pretty simple how they price.

1. Rarity/ Desirability

2.Condition/Genuine original label

3.Provenance

4.Sound

Could you show an auction house or dealership anywhere that prices differently ?

 

 

You are one the right way :) still a little bit slowly, but it comes.

Already you included sound in your equitation. If you now would recognize, that your first point rarity / Desirability exactly is the sound point, then you would have gone some more steps : fine sound is rare and desirable ! These both features of sound produced the historic value of great instruments in decades- until centuries-long evalution - processes, may be together with a certain amount of some optical factors like beautiness/personality/expressivity of shapes and varnish/ground. That´s it.

You are - with some first tentative steps - on the right way !

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2 minutes ago, Danube Fiddler said:

You are one the right way :) still a little bit slowly, but it comes.

Already you included sound in your equitation. If you now would recognize, that your first point rarity / Desirability exactly is the sound point, then you would have gone some more steps : fine sound is rare and desirable ! These both features of sound produced the historic value of great instruments in decades- until centuries-long evalution - processes, may be together with a certain amount of some optical factors like beautiness/personality/expressivity of shapes and varnish/ground. That´s it.

You are - with some first tentative steps - on the right way !

It goes without saying that every violinist is searching for the best sound.

Lets say you get a call from someone who has found a violin with a a Bergonzi label. You arrange to view the violin,and being a person who is passionate about sound,your first instinct is to try how it sounds. Wonderful ! - you are blown away by the sound.

You want the violin, you MUST have the violin, because it sounds like nothing else you have ever heard. Your ears are very - very - very  pleased. Now its the eyes turn. On close  inspection you notice the cracks, the label is not right, the varnish is new in places, repairs everywhere. You ask a colleague who is a renowned expert to view it, and he/she confirms it is not a real Bergonzi.

So how much will you now offer, as its the sound that matters most ?

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1 hour ago, Danube Fiddler said:

The "little club" ( you are also a member" ? ) claims, that sound is not paid, has no monetary value. Then the price-difference of ~ 1M between  this nice Ainé- violin and a fine G.B.Guadagnini will not be because of sound. Therefore there wouldn´t be any reason to expect a higher sound-quality of the Guadagnini.  If there would be any significant statistical correlation between sound and price, you would have to pay for sound-quality ( or against sound, if correlation should be negative), even if the relation is not causal. The "little club" tells, there is no correlation ---> the sound expections about very expensive instruments and very cheap ones must be the same.

You didn´t ask me that until now. I much more got the impression, that you and some few others would be very happy, when I would not speak about sound -_-.

1) I think to remember not to have spoken about "amateur violins" but factory violins - however mainly meant violins without particular object-value but presentable optical appearence.

2) sound-evaluation is not easy - this just is the reason, why the "little club" dreams of to ignore it 

3) While your suggestions about sound - evaluations are quite reasonable, they are not completely realistic. However some fine players, different locations, some time in orchestral playing and chambermusic, solo if possible,  at the best in real concert situations with filled halls should be done and often are possible, if you are a professional musician. This always has to be done, even if the instrument has a clear object value by a clear attribution to a great maker. 

 

The function of all this blurb is obviously to disguise that you're unable to answer my question: Who is qualified to decide finally (it means in a justiciable way) that a violin has an "outstanding tone" so that it's woth minimum 15 000 DM in the 1980ies? That was your claim, and you expressis verbis explained this in regard of the amateur made violin mentioend by Martin. So don't try to escape, it won't work.

A price difference of 3 000 GBP to, conservative estimated 15 000 GBP isn't a small sum at all, and people were impeached for less, that's about "criminalization of sound".

Your claim about the "small club" tells a lot about your Realitätsverlust (you know the word?). Just try to check out what you're talking about before writing.

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11 hours ago, Delabo said:

 

In today's news...................

Bottle of 1945 Burgundy sells for £424,000 to become world’s most expensive wine. (The Independent)

Its the taste that makes it worth that much.

Interesting you would say that.

They definitely did not open uncork the bottle  in advance of the sale to have a taste.

In fact there's a chance the wine doesn't taste that good anymore, due to the vissicitudes of age.

We'll never know because no one will ever open that bottle. It will forever be that very expensive bottle some rich guy talks about to friends.

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11 hours ago, Delabo said:

 

In today's news...................

Bottle of 1945 Burgundy sells for £424,000 to become world’s most expensive wine. (The Independent)

Its the taste that makes it worth that much.

Interesting you would say that.

They definitely did not open uncork the bottle  in advance of the sale to have a taste.

In fact there's a chance the wine doesn't taste that good anymore, due to the vissicitudes of age.

We'll never know because no one will ever open that bottle. It will forever be that very expensive bottle some rich guy talks about to friends.

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11 hours ago, Delabo said:

 

In today's news...................

Bottle of 1945 Burgundy sells for £424,000 to become world’s most expensive wine. (The Independent)

Its the taste that makes it worth that much.

Interesting you would say that.

They definitely did not open uncork the bottle  in advance of the sale to have a taste.

In fact there's a chance the wine doesn't taste that good anymore, due to the vissicitudes of age.

We'll never know because no one will ever open that bottle. It will forever be that very expensive bottle some rich guy talks about to friends.

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11 hours ago, Delabo said:

 

In today's news...................

Bottle of 1945 Burgundy sells for £424,000 to become world’s most expensive wine. (The Independent)

Its the taste that makes it worth that much.

Interesting you would say that.

They definitely did not open uncork the bottle  in advance of the sale to have a taste.

In fact there's a chance the wine doesn't taste that good anymore, due to the vissicitudes of age.

We'll never know because no one will ever open that bottle. It will forever be that very expensive bottle some rich guy talks about to friends.

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15 minutes ago, Fiddler45 said:

IMO, if someone had  to get "collegues" to help  him evaluate the sound quality, he is making a poor decision. Either he loves the tone or he doesn't. Who cares what they  say?

You are right : you as potential owner must be happy in the first rank - otherwise an aquisition makes no sense at all - naturally. However something like a "market-value" depends on the possibility to resell. So it is needed - additional, not alternative - to get an impression about the judgements of other persons with advanced knowledge in sound (including playability) as also in object-value ( done by ackknowledged makers/dealers ). 

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On 10/12/2018 at 12:42 AM, Danube Fiddler said:

 

Nonsense !  It is not a deception at all, because no wrong claim is made. You ( as seller ) tell the client, that it is a factory violin or a nameless and school-less violin, which normally would cost 1 or 2 k. Because it has a really outstanding sound,( sounds nearly best of all fine old-italian violins until Strad/ Guadagnini etc., Martin Swan ever met) you want to have 16 k. So the client is fully informed and can decide, if he wants to acquire this violin. If any client misses such great opportunity, to get a Guadagnini - sound for 16 K - then we can´t help him any longer.

Exactly the "sound" of the usual crooks at Ebay and other places.:ph34r:

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23 minutes ago, Danube Fiddler said:

You are right : you as potential owner must be happy in the first rank - otherwise an aquisition makes no sense at all - naturally. However something like a "market-value" depends on the possibility to resell. So it is needed - additional, not alternative - to get an impression about the judgements of other persons with advanced knowledge in sound (including playability) as also in object-value ( done by acknowledged makers/dealers ). 

Perhaps you could explain why someone buys a relatively ordinary Tourte violin bow at auction for €565,000 without even having played it. No provenance, no illustrious player history, just great condition (for the stick at least) and original silk lapping.

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14 minutes ago, martin swan said:

Perhaps you could explain why someone buys a relatively ordinary Tourte violin bow at auction for €565,000 without even having played it. No provenance, no illustrious player history, just great condition (for the stick at least) and original silk lapping.

Sorry Martin, but you don't get it . It's not about some Tourtes, Guadagninis and the like. It's about "factory" and how it's possible to sell them for some 15 000. "Hey, I sold you the violin exactly as described for 1 000. You paid the other 14 K for the sound only. It's all about sound, ye know?"

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On 10/12/2018 at 12:14 PM, Danube Fiddler said:

While his collegues have to sleep under a brigde to can afford the minor sounding 160k violin -  this poor "money-burner" has sleepless nights to decide, what to do with the not-spended 160 K - perhaps buy a nice home with a fine music-room to enjoy chamber-music with friends :)

You even will be able to buy a nice home if you purchase this 15 K factory!

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2 hours ago, Fiddler45 said:

IMO, if someone had  to get "collegues" to help  him evaluate the sound quality, he is making a poor decision. Either he loves the tone or he doesn't. Who cares what they  say?

You would be very hard pressed to find three Top Players of the past 100 or so years who did not chose their instrument based on the opinions of their colleagues. Of late, the opportunities for "choosing" have greatly diminished if not completely vanished and they make do with what they can lay their hands on, for as long as it lasts.

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53 minutes ago, Blank face said:

Sorry Martin, but you don't get it . It's not about some Tourtes, Guadagninis and the like. It's about "factory" and how it's possible to sell them for some 15 000. "Hey, I sold you the violin exactly as described for 1 000. You paid the other 14 K for the sound only. It's all about sound, ye know?"

He gets it perfectly.

His "tone" bit is hidden in the difference between trade and retail price - you did notice all his violins sound good to downright Strady. And he knows tone - he's got a special area on his site, all about tone evaluations. Your idea that I can't ask you 15000DM for a violin Martinvalued at 250DM because I think it sounds "great" ( whatever that is ) AND that should you later discover it to be "worth" much less than that would mean I defrauded you is complete bollocks. But this new idea of the Violin Dealer as caretaker of a client's financial interests is a nice nuance.

I believe Danube Fiddler describes pretty accurately a chunk of the violin market from the '70s and up to mid/late '80s when a lot of violins would change hands at often unrecoverable prices based on some perception of tone and mostly directly amongst musicians and in particular Conservatory students. 

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2 hours ago, Herman West said:

sorry for double posts. Something wasn't working right.

I had the same malfunction earlier in this thread. May be it can happen, if you are not writing texts on the last page but on earlier ones.

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1 hour ago, martin swan said:

Perhaps you could explain why someone buys a relatively ordinary Tourte violin bow at auction for €565,000 without even having played it. No provenance, no illustrious player history, just great condition (for the stick at least) and original silk lapping.

Did they have court-appointed custodians who were disciplined for letting them get near a telephone unattended?  :ph34r:

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