So exactly what IS the minimum value for a good factory instrument?

[PhilipKT]

So what would you say is the bottom value for an old factory instrument in good shape that is fully carved, fully lined, fully blocked, made with good wood, and varnished with good varnish?

that description applies to all the top line Juzeks as well as countless other such factory names like JTL, Micelli, Morelli, Roth, Heberlein, etc. it’s kind of surprising how derisive people are towards the very nice Juzek Master art shared here a couple days ago, but if they are reasonably well made, they must have some minimum value.

what is it?

one reason I ask is because I just found an old Juzek cello on offer at auction. It has no setup, the wood appears very plain and the varnish looks basic, but it has no cracks at all and is expected to sell for about $800. Add +\- $400 for set up and you’ve spent $12-1300 on a cello that should easily compare to a factory Chinese cello costing 2-3 times as much, right?

[ChicagoDogs]

I don't want to touch the minimum value question, but "fully lined/fully blocked" is a bizarre phrase that, as far as I can tell, came into use via eBay 10-15 years ago.  I think it was borrowed from haberdashery.  Corner blocks have no direct relevance to value on violins at a basic level - there could be nice instruments that were built with no need for corner blocks that far exceed the value of cheap ones built with corner blocks in a different construction approach.  Corner construction is relevant for identification, of course.  At a higher level, this stuff becomes more relevant, but at the basic level of workable trade instruments, it's not.

 

[PhilipKT]

1 hour ago, ChicagoDogs said:

I don't want to touch the minimum value question, but "fully lined/fully blocked" is a bizarre phrase that, as far as I can tell, came into use via eBay 10-15 years ago.  I think it was borrowed from haberdashery.  Corner blocks have no direct relevance to value on violins at a basic level - there could be nice instruments that were built with no need for corner blocks that far exceed the value of cheap ones built with corner blocks in a different construction approach.  Corner construction is relevant for identification, of course.  At a higher level, this stuff becomes more relevant, but at the basic level of workable trade instruments, it's not.

 

 You are correct, but an instrument that is fully lined and blocked, is probably made to a higher standard than an instrument that is not, All things being equal. I once bought a splendid violin  that had no upper blocks at all and an integral bass bar. My guy put in a proper bass bar,  said that upper blocks were not necessary, set it up, and the result was a very attractive and excellent sounding instrument. I was delighted with it.

But I think in general, fully blocked and lined is a reference to construction effort, which would usually translate to construction quality.

Edited October 6, 2018 by PhilipKT
Typo

[Guido]

59 minutes ago, PhilipKT said:

But I think in general, fully blocked and lined is a reference to construction effort, which would usually translate to construction quality.

No, not at all. It's just ebay bollocks.

1 hour ago, PhilipKT said:

My guy put in a proper bass bar, ...

The proper bass bar in Vogtland instruments was replaced with a glue-in bass bar to make it possible to carve tops with a milling machine. A carved out bass bar just takes too much effort and is not warranted on cheap instruments.

[PhilipKT]

2 minutes ago, Guido said:

The proper bass bar in Vogtland instruments was replaced with a glue-in bass bar to make it possible to carve tops with a milling machine. A carved out bass bar just takes too much effort and is not warranted on cheap instruments.

I’m not sure what you’re saying. The violin that I referenced was cheaply made but turned out to be quite good.

Are you saying that an integral base bar is actually more time consuming then a separate base bar?

 If so, then it is curious that what is actually better is actually easier. Regardless the anecdote was a digression away from the question, which I admit is fairly difficult to answer. Good quality factory  violin has a certain minimum value.  I’m just trying to find out what that floor is.

 Prices vary throughout the country, but It is a question that probably can be answered.

[Guido]

1 minute ago, PhilipKT said:

Are you saying that an integral base bar is actually more time consuming then a separate base bar?

Yes.

2 minutes ago, PhilipKT said:

 If so, then it is curious that what is actually better is actually easier.

I wouldn't want to say what is 'better'. It certainly doesn't help distinguish between a higher and a lower grade violin.

5 minutes ago, PhilipKT said:

Good quality factory  violin has a certain minimum value.  I’m just trying to find out what that floor is.

 Prices vary throughout the country, but It is a question that probably can be answered.

Your list of brand names in the OP probably spans the range of old playable trade instruments between $500 and maybe just shy of $10k.

Juzek was discussed many times. Do a search. In short: it's not a violin but just a label that could be in any grade of bought-in violin. The master art series are higher grade bought-in violins and may compare to Heberlein or Roth. Others may be overpriced at $1k. 

JTL is a whole world in it's own right. Have a look here:

http://www.luthiers-mirecourt.com/thibouville1901_1.htm

[PhilipKT]

 I have access to that link before, unfortunately I do not speak French and there doesn’t appear to be an option to read it in English. I guess I’m not phrasing  the question clearly enough to get a worthwhile answer.

 And yes, I know all about Juzeks.   Those made before about 1950, even the lesser grades, are good quality factory instruments, and those, and others of similar type, regardless of name, have a certain minimum value. And I was asking about what that minimum value is.  The cellos would  of course be more expensive, but I cannot but think that  One such cello in good condition would be worth a couple of thousand dollars at least, because it would almost certainly be better than a typical modern  Chinese instrument of the same cost.

[Wood Butcher]

10 hours ago, PhilipKT said:

So what would you say is the bottom value for an old factory instrument in good shape that is fully carved, fully lined, fully blocked, made with good wood, and varnished with good varnish

One reason I ask is because I just found an old Juzek cello on offer at auction. It has no setup, the wood appears very plain and the varnish looks basic, but it has no cracks at all and is expected to sell for about $800. Add +\- $400 for set up and you’ve spent $12-1300 on a cello that should easily compare to a factory Chinese cello costing 2-3 times as much, right?

So essentially, you just want to know how much you should pay for this cello, and if it will make you some money?

[matesic]

If I've learned one thing about violins and their prices the last few years, it's that there's no such thing as "value" let alone "exactly". Also that there's no precise definition of "good" or "factory".

[jacobsaunders]

9 hours ago, PhilipKT said:

 

Are you saying that an integral base bar is actually more time consuming then a separate base bar?

Being someone who has actually made a violin with a carved integral bass bar out of academic interest, I can attest that it is far more work than sticking one in afterwards. It was part of the regional building tradition of various places, not just Saxon. Talk of removeing it, and glueing in a „proper“ bar, just displays ignorance. Talk of „blocked“, „lined“ or even „cased“ violins gives me goose-pimples.

"Value" and "Price" are also two different Things one should rather not conflate

[PhilipKT]

7 hours ago, Wood Butcher said:

So essentially, you just want to know how much you should pay for this cello, and if it will make you some money?

No, not thinking about that at all.  I gave up buying stuff at auction long ago, except for the occasional cello Bow.

 I’m wondering what floor is. A 60-80 year old solid factory instrument (“solid” meaning well built of good wood with good quality varnish) must have some minimum value, and that value would probably be established by comparing it to what a new equivalent would cost.

 

[PhilipKT]

6 hours ago, jacobsaunders said:

Being someone who has actually made a violin with a carved integral bass bar out of academic interest, I can attest that it is far more work than sticking one in afterwards. It was part of the regional building tradition of various places, not just Saxon. Talk of removeing it, and glueing in a „proper“ bar, just displays ignorance. Talk of „blocked“, „lined“ or even „cased“ violins gives me goose-pimples.

 

"Value" and "Price" are also two different Things one should rather not conflate

Jacob I’ve often said I know very little about instruments despite my  interest in learning. I quite possibly used improper terminology, but I am neither unable to learn nor unwilling.

it is my understanding that glued in bass bars are better and that is why people use them instead of integral bars. If that is incorrect please explain why?

Fully blocked should be clear. If that’s not an indication of additional effort please explain why not? I have come to understand that blocks are not necessary when using certain types of construction, but then one wonders why some people would bother putting in fake blocks, or why blocks are used at all.

theres a lot to learn and I’ve been trying. Merely calling me ignorant solves nothing.

[Rue]

7 hours ago, Wood Butcher said:

So essentially, you just want to know how much you should pay for this cello, and if it will make you some money?

Well - even if that was the case  - what's wrong with that?

I like to know/ keep up with the value (increasing or decreasing) of things I own. Entire insurance businesses are based on that  Gross vs net value, etc.

[jacobsaunders]

20 minutes ago, PhilipKT said:

Jacob I’ve often said I know very little about instruments despite my  interest in learning. I quite possibly used improper terminology, but I am neither unable to learn nor unwilling.

it is my understanding that glued in bass bars are better and that is why people use them instead of integral bars. If that is incorrect please explain why?

Fully blocked should be clear. If that’s not an indication of additional effort please explain why not? I have come to understand that blocks are not necessary when using certain types of construction, but then one wonders why some people would bother putting in fake blocks, or why blocks are used at all.

theres a lot to learn and I’ve been trying. Merely calling me ignorant solves nothing.

The burden of proof is on your side, why glued in should be better (or „proper“), just because you say so.

A violin doesn’t get „blocked“, it either has corner blocks (various guise) as a function of the building method used, or it doesn’t. Nobody „blocks“ a violin  simply to impress the likes of you.

[GeorgeH]

48 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

A violin doesn’t get „blocked“, it either has corner blocks (various guise) as a function of the building method used, or it doesn’t. Nobody „blocks“ a violin  simply to impress the likes of you.

As you know, violin often have fake blocks to fool people into believing that they have blocks because, whether you like it or not, the general violin-buying public believes that violins that are "fully-lined and blocked" are somehow "better."

If the general violin-buying public did not believe that violins with blocks were better than violins without blocks, there would be no economic incentive to install fake blocks.

I personally have never seen a violin without linings.

[Jeff White]

I'll stay away from the lining/block/bar part of the discussion, but as far as floor/ceiling on the commercial instruments, I think it's a fair question.  This is my experience (in my shop).  A good portion of my sales  are in  this  range (newer shop).  I have found that the floor depends on how far you go with most of these trade instruments.  Cleanly made 20th C Markies (for example) and JTL's are often made very "heavy". Also, many need proper neck angle work etc.  You see these instruments (Not Heberleins/Roths) on Craig's List all day long for $700.  I sell them with a floor of about $1700, if clean.  But.....many of these have proper setups, and  many have had regrads/BB (I have no problem with this  on commercial instruments), neck resets, boards etc.  More work than many would find  worth it, but, I have a clientele that doesn't want upper end Chinese and holds the older European instruments to a higher value/status and  this  is my biz stategy to "wriggle" into the market. This ends up usually being that I am just selling my labor, but in the beginning of my shop venture, that is how my time is best used for $ value.  My range for the instruments the OP mentioned is pretty much $1500-$9K.  The  higher end obviously being roth's, the antiqued Heberleins etc, something the public can research and verify, therefore, adding $ to the instrument through "security".  As far as the Juzek Cello, almost all that I have had come through (pre 1950's) have desperately needed regrads (ugh) or you can't compare them to a  $3K Chinese cello.  The Chinese cello slaughters them sonically (IMHO).  That adds a ton to the cost, as it never ceases to amaze me  how long  it takes me to fit a cello BB.  I can't   imagine getting  away with buying a Juzek (basic) cello, setting it up and selling it, would be nice though.

[PhilipKT]

2 hours ago, jacobsaunders said:

The burden of proof is on your side, why glued in should be better (or „proper“), just because you say so.

I thought that I had made clear that I don't say anything and I dont claim to know very much at all, but the people who make violins use glued in bass bars instead of integral bass bars, and they DO know what they are doing. It is reasonable assume that glued-in is better than integral.

The only reason for fake blocks would be to fool people into assuming they are genuine, which again indicates there’s a difference between having them and not having them.

Those aren’t unreasonable conclusions.

And “the likes of me” are people who want to learn. And there’s nothing wrong with that.

[jacobsaunders]

6 minutes ago, PhilipKT said:

the people who make violins use glued in bass bars instead of integral bass bars, and they DO know what they are doing. It is reasonable assume that glued-in is better than integral.

 

Does that mean that someone like, say Schönfelder, who caved his bars didn't know what he was doing?

[PhilipKT]

1 minute ago, jacobsaunders said:

 

9 minutes ago, PhilipKT said:

the people who make violins use glued in bass bars instead of integral bass bars, and they DO know what they are doing. It is reasonable assume that glued-in is better than integral.

 

Does that mean that someone like, say Schönfelder, who caved his bars didn't know what he was

 

 I do not know who that was, but the fact that you mention him indicates that he is probably the exception rather than the rule.

I think it might be a more clear question to ask why you yourself use glued in bass bars instead of integral. You know how to do each, and you have done each,  but you have chosen the one-way over the other way. Because you are an artist, manufacturing convenience would not be the dominant factor in your choice, because your goal is sound quality. 

 

[Terry Colley]

13 minutes ago, PhilipKT said:

I thought that I had made clear that I don't say anything and I dont claim to know very much at all, but the people who make violins use glued in bass bars instead of integral bass bars, and they DO know what they are doing. It is reasonable assume that glued-in is better than integral.

The only reason for fake blocks would be to fool people into assuming they are genuine, which again indicates there’s a difference between having them and not having them.

Those aren’t unreasonable conclusions.

And “the likes of me” are people who want to learn. And there’s nothing wrong with that.

Nothing wrong with the likes of you wanting to learn but you are being advised by people who know what they are talking about they might be  al little obtuse  at times ,but its just their way of getting through to you, as an apprentice I got a clip round the ear  it was just the bosses way of making sure I got the message!

[PhilipKT]

2 hours ago, Jeff White said:

I'll stay away from the lining/block/bar part of the discussion, but as far as floor/ceiling on the commercial instruments, I think it's a fair question.  This is my experience (in my shop).  A good portion of my sales  are in  this  range (newer shop).  I have found that the floor depends on how far you go with most of these trade instruments.  Cleanly made 20th C Markies (for example) and JTL's are often made very "heavy". Also, many need proper neck angle work etc.  You see these instruments (Not Heberleins/Roths) on Craig's List all day long for $700.  I sell them with a floor of about $1700, if clean.  But.....many of these have proper setups, and  many have had regrads/BB (I have no problem with this  on commercial instruments), neck resets, boards etc.  More work than many would find  worth it, but, I have a clientele that doesn't want upper end Chinese and holds the older European instruments to a higher value/status and  this  is my biz stategy to "wriggle" into the market. This ends up usually being that I am just selling my labor, but in the beginning of my shop venture, that is how my time is best used for $ value.  My range for the instruments the OP mentioned is pretty much $1500-$9K.  The  higher end obviously being roth's, the antiqued Heberleins etc, something the public can research and verify, therefore, adding $ to the instrument through "security".  As far as the Juzek Cello, almost all that I have had come through (pre 1950's) have desperately needed regrads (ugh) or you can't compare them to a  $3K Chinese cello.  The Chinese cello slaughters them sonically (IMHO).  That adds a ton to the cost, as it never ceases to amaze me  how long  it takes me to fit a cello BB.  I can't   imagine getting  away with buying a Juzek (basic) cello, setting it up and selling it, would be nice though.

Thanks. I really appreciate your reply. I’ve found that the Jay Haide cellos are excellent instruments, and the least of them sells in the Dallas area for about $4500. But I frequently find 20-30 year old Stohr cellos in the area selling for 2-3K and for that price they are tremendous values. Another student found a 1981 Benedict Lang, which I think is also a factory name, and it cost him about $2800.

cellos like those are what prompted the initial question.

thanks again.

[jacobsaunders]

19 minutes ago, PhilipKT said:

 I do not know who that was, but the fact that you mention him indicates that he is probably the exception rather than the rule.

I think it might be a more clear question to ask why you yourself use glued in bass bars instead of integral. You know how to do each, and you have done each,  but you have chosen the one-way over the other way. Because you are an artist, manufacturing convenience would not be the dominant factor in your choice, because your goal is sound quality. 

 

In the 18th and early 19th C. there were different regional styles/methods of making a violin. These are very useful for working out where a violin comes from. Since there are crappy violins made everywhere using all of these methods, you are barking up the wrong tree, mistaking features for a sign of/lack of quality, rather that just a sign of where an Instrument came from.

[matesic]

You say Stohr cellos selling for 2-3K are "tremendous values", meaning their value to the purchaser is greater than their retail price. A rather more usual definition of "value" is how much money one might to expect to raise by selling, which is very much less than the retail price. I make these obvious and pedantic points because when a question lends itself to different interpretations, a meaningful answer is quite impossible. Of course, that wouldn't be unusual on MN 

[Jeff White]

3 minutes ago, matesic said:

You say Stohr cellos selling for 2-3K are "tremendous values", meaning their value to the purchaser is greater than their retail price. A rather more usual definition of "value" is how much money one might to expect to raise by selling, which is very much less than the retail price. I make these obvious and pedantic points because when a question lends itself to different interpretations, a meaningful answer is quite impossible. Of course, that wouldn't be unusual on MN 

Yep, I often have to remember that not all are resellers......

[Rue]

50 minutes ago, PhilipKT said:

...but the people who make violins use glued in bass bars instead of integral bass bars, and they DO know what they are doing. It is reasonable assume that glued-in is better than integral.

...

I always assumed glued-in is was easier - and just as good...