Playing Double Stops Using Just intonation: which note compromises which note?

[tchaikovsgay]

Hi. I understand we playing double stops using Just intonation instead of Pythagorean, but sometimes I have no clue which notes compromises which note... for example, from 1st Movement from Violin Concerto No.1, Op.26 by Max Bruch:

 

Photo 1 (I hope this is correct):

 

There are three double stops. D&B♭, C&A, B♭&G.

D&B♭: D is an open string, so B♭ should be played higher (than in Pythagorean) in order to form a Just minor 6th with the D. 

C&A: A is an open string, so C should be played higher (than in Pythagorean) in order to form a Just major 6th with the A.

B♭&G: G is an open string, so B♭ should be played higher (than in Pythagorean) in order to form a Just major 6th with the G.

*I compromise non-open string pitch-classes to the open string ones because this allows sympathetic vibration (the point at which the note is exactly on pitch, the open string with same letter name vibrates freely)
 

Photo 2 (I have no clue):

Analyzing the double stop with the up-bow mark:

There is one double stop, C&A♭.

Neither of them is open string pitch-class, so none of them allows sympathetic vibration; should I play a higher A♭ or a lower C (than in Pythagorean) in order to form a Just minor 6th?

And why?

Thank you

P.S. the piece is in G minor

[matesic]

Isn't it all a bit of a fudge? Do you think Bruch would have really cared? Are your open strings tuned according to just intonation or Pythagorean? Am I aping Socrates?

[Muswell]

4 hours ago, matesic said:

Isn't it all a bit of a fudge? Do you think Bruch would have really cared? Are your open strings tuned according to just intonation or Pythagorean? Am I aping Socrates?

That's a good question.

[Rue]

Now I feel guilty - I've never even thought to think about this.

I've just been trying to get them to sound right - er, using only my ears.

[AtlVcl]

1 hour ago, Rue said:

I've just been trying to get them to sound right - er, using only my ears.

ROTFL!  When I read posts like these I always assume there's some kind of subtext to the question, and I also tend to think it's something designed to make the poster feel superior.  If the question is sincere, why the hell are you posting here, and not on Violinist.com?
Even better: shoot your college prof an email.

This is like an MNer going to a violin Website and asking for the results of the latest experiments involving different plate thicknesses and their effect on quality of sound.  It's not so much a question as an announcement of his superiority.
IOW, it's bullshit.

[matesic]

1 hour ago, AtlVcl said:

 why the hell are you posting here, and not on Violinist.com?

"The Fingerboard is focused on discussions relating to string instrument playing, practicing, technique...". If you don't understand the question you aren't required to make an answer.

[La Folia]

The double stop in question is the same interval as the first one you have marked, is it not?  So, same thing.  Since you know the difference, you are probably one of the rare people who have the ability to figure it out.

I wouldn't change the intonation of the C from note to note.  But the other problem is that I assume there is orchestral accompaniment at this point?  You might be playing against a tempered chord, in which case that's probably what you should use.  And I'm not certain whether the difference could be heard anyway.  Small differences in intonation schemes are most audible when playing when there are no other sounds.  I don't think there are any rules on exactly how to do this.  If there are, I would be interested in knowing about it.

[AtlVcl]

11 hours ago, matesic said:

Isn't it all a bit of a fudge? Do you think Bruch would have really cared? Are your open strings tuned according to just intonation or Pythagorean? Am I aping Socrates?

Clearly it's the sort of thing that floats your boat, even if you ask if it isn't a fudge.  I say go for it.

[Violadamore]

12 hours ago, Rue said:

Now I feel guilty - I've never even thought to think about this.

I've just been trying to get them to sound right - er, using only my ears.

I don't feel a bit guilty, and you shouldn't either.  I've got better things to think about (which, for reasons stated by AtlVcl, I shall not enumerate), and, so I believe, do you.  Whether or not my intonation is just or merely unconstitutional, and whether a mode is Dorian or Hyperborean, etc., falls outside my professional responsibilities.  I'm not a music prof.  So, when I play the violin, besides reading the music, I just direct my fingers in such a fashion that it makes my ears happiest for a given passage.

[tchaikovsgay]

20 hours ago, matesic said:

Isn't it all a bit of a fudge? Do you think Bruch would have really cared? Are your open strings tuned according to just intonation or Pythagorean? Am I aping Socrates?

 

Of course, it would be a fudge to calculate this for all double stops, but I have horrible intonation for double stops, so I try to find the correct spot by using this method. For the open strings, Perfect 5ths are the same in both Pythagorean and Just (I made a chart)

[tchaikovsgay]

14 hours ago, AtlVcl said:

ROTFL!  When I read posts like these I always assume there's some kind of subtext to the question, and I also tend to think it's something designed to make the poster feel superior.  If the question is sincere, why the hell are you posting here, and not on Violinist.com?
 Even better: shoot your college prof an email.

This is like an MNer going to a violin Website and asking for the results of the latest experiments involving different plate thicknesses and their effect on quality of sound.  It's not so much a question as an announcement of his superiority.
 IOW, it's bullshit.

How am I superior if I can't even play those double stops in tune

[tchaikovsgay]

13 hours ago, matesic said:

"The Fingerboard is focused on discussions relating to string instrument playing, practicing, technique...". If you don't understand the question you aren't required to make an answer.

Yes. Some people can just find the correct sound by listening, but some are not so good at that or need some extra guidance to confirm we're going in the right direction (like me)

[tchaikovsgay]

13 hours ago, La Folia said:

The double stop in question is the same interval as the first one you have marked, is it not?  So, same thing.  Since you know the difference, you are probably one of the rare people who have the ability to figure it out.

 I wouldn't change the intonation of the C from note to note.  But the other problem is that I assume there is orchestral accompaniment at this point?  You might be playing against a tempered chord, in which case that's probably what you should use.  And I'm not certain whether the difference could be heard anyway.  Small differences in intonation schemes are most audible when playing when there are no other sounds.  I don't think there are any rules on exactly how to do this.  If there are, I would be interested in knowing about it.

Yes, both the marked one and the one in the question are minor 6ths. So you think A♭ should be higher (than in Pythagorean) in order to form a Just minor 6th with the C. why?

*the accompaniment is playing D F A♭ C

A♭ is the 5th of the chord, so it's less important than C?

[matesic]

5 hours ago, Violadamore said:

I don't feel a bit guilty, and you shouldn't either.  I've got better things to think about (which, for reasons stated by AtlVcl, I shall not enumerate), and, so I believe, do you.  Whether or not my intonation is just or merely unconstitutional, and whether a mode is Dorian or Hyperborean, etc., falls outside my professional responsibilities.  I'm not a music prof.  So, when I play the violin, besides reading the music, I just direct my fingers in such a fashion that it makes my ears happiest for a given passage.

When I was a student of psychology I and my fellows were agreed that 90% of what we were taught was rubbish. We just couldn't agree on which 90%. The same applies to MN, but it's entertaining to read about the weird and wonderful things that people obsess over

[Violadamore]

35 minutes ago, matesic said:

When I was a student of psychology I and my fellows were agreed that 90% of what we were taught was rubbish. We just couldn't agree on which 90%. The same applies to MN, but it's entertaining to read about the weird and wonderful things that people obsess over

Yup.  The other 10% was statistics, right?   IMHO, prior to around 1990 (and the advent of modern brain research and molecular biology), the whole flipping mess was a mixture of illusion, delusion, and witchcraft, leavened with a slick of practical advertising methodology.   Referring to psychology, of course (MN didn't exist yet in 1990).

[matesic]

Yes, and nobody understood it! At least the other 90% talked on MN is essentially harmless

[uncle duke]

On 9/26/2018 at 3:34 AM, tchaikovsgay said:

 

There are three double stops. D&B♭, C&A, B♭&G.

C&A: A is an open string, so C should be played higher (than in Pythagorean) in order to form a Just major 6th with the A

Analyzing the double stop with the up-bow mark:

1.  Why would you want to change the Perlman school of transcribing? {finger placement}

2.  What about the bowing for the next measure?  Seems to me you're creating a little bit more work for yourself.

[fiolmattias]

On 9/26/2018 at 10:34 AM, tchaikovsgay said:

Hi. I understand we playing double stops Using Just intonation instead of Pythagorean, but sometimes I have no clue which notes compromises which note... for example, from 1st Movement from Violin Concerto No.1, Op.26 by Max Bruch:

Neither of them is open string pitch-class, so none of them allows sympathetic vibration; should I play a higher A♭ or a lower C (than in Pythagorean) in order to form a Just minor 6th?

And why?

Thank you

P.S. the piece is in G minor

You are making it to hard on yourself. The ear wants to hear the melody in tune (normally the top note), and the other note(s) have to adjust.

When there are open strings involved they will not change the pitch of the other notes. Ex a Gm chord, open G, open D, the Bb a bit higher and the G in tune.

On the other hand if there is an open string on top, the lower (fingered notes) have to change. Ex the C#-dim in the Chaconne, where the Bb have to be tuned to fit the open E-string.

[La Folia]

On 9/27/2018 at 12:37 AM, tchaikovsgay said:

Yes, both the marked one and the one in the question are minor 6ths. So you think A♭ should be higher (than in Pythagorean) in order to form a Just minor 6th with the C. why?

*the accompaniment is playing D F A♭ C

A♭ is the 5th of the chord, so it's less important than C?

You asked why again.  You didn't like my answer?  I should make it clear that I was talking about photo 2, since you yourself kind of answered photo 1.

If the accompaniment is playing a D against the C, you have an interval of a second or 7th.  Normally just intonation is used to minimize audible beats, or at least that's one function.  With an interval of a second, there's no way to prevent beats, and there's probably no way to hear whether the C-A-flat chord is causing beats.  So I'm not sure this matters.  Normally when playing against accompaniment like this, tempered tuning is used, especially if the other instruments are using tempered tuning (they almost certainly are).

As for whether the top note or bottom note takes precedence, I vaguely remember being taught that you start with the bottom note, then add the top note to match, but I think that was just a method of practicing.  And only one theory on how to practice.  I would say the top note is what's heard, so you need to match that with the orchestra.  And of course you should not move the C.  It stays the same pitch from note to note.

But again, I'm afraid you're going to have to use your ears and your own sense of aesthetics.  If you can manage just tuning here and it sounds better and the orchestra matches it, that would be great.  I can't claim much knowledge about this, but I don't think intonation is written in stone.

[La Folia]

Sorry to sound grumpy this morning, but I don't ridiculing the OP is a good idea.  Careers depend on getting intonation exactly right.  Whether or not you think the difference in intonation is important or relevant in this instance, it is a legitimate question that requires an answer.

String playing requires a decision about intonation for every single note.  And to can learn to play all those thousands of notes beautifully, you have to start with at a time, and practice that until it becomes second nature.

Some of you may think there's no practical difference between tempered tuning or just tuning (or whatever it's called).  There's a big difference, and Sassmannshaus actually demonstrates it in one of his videos.

[Rue]

1 hour ago, La Folia said:

Sorry to sound grumpy this morning, but I don't ridiculing the OP is a good idea.

...

I hope we are not ridiculing, hopefully just engaging in some good-natured teasing.

Everyone learns and progresses at different rates, but still - best to learn to walk before running.

I think you can probably safely learn to play at the highest level before delving into the physics of this level of detail.

[La Folia]

1 hour ago, Rue said:

I hope we are not ridiculing, hopefully just engaging in some good-natured teasing.

...I think you can probably safely learn to play at the highest level before delving into the physics of this level of detail.

Well, I hope it wasn't ridicule.

Ears can hear physical phenomena too.  To play at the highest level, don't you think it is necessary to hear details of intonation?

[Rue]

Of course! That's the goal! 

But why overanalyze before you can "do it" physically?

A baby doesn't need to understand the physics involved in walking before s/he walks. However, if the baby grows up to be Usain Bolt - they may need to do some more homework. Or not.

If that baby grows up to be a physicist or a mechanical engineer - then of course!

[Stephen Fine]

On 10/4/2018 at 10:08 AM, fiolmattias said:

You are making it to hard on yourself. The ear wants to hear the melody in tune (normally the top note), and the other note(s) have to adjust.

That's the general idea.  Adjust around the melody as open strings allow.

[La Folia]

On 10/4/2018 at 1:47 PM, Rue said:

But why overanalyze before you can "do it" physically?

I agree, if he/she can't play double stops well, as he says, I'm not sure that the Bruch is the place to start.

On the other hand, I don't know how you can learn to play double stops really well without some understanding.  I would never knock someone for wanting to go beyond the usual cursory understanding.