Rue Posted September 17, 2018 Report Share Posted September 17, 2018 Just curious; how do factories price/market their bows? Outside of the obvious I mean. For example, I have one each of two different brands of "good" factory bows. I can find the occasional example of them on-line - but only ever of inexpensive student bows sold either individually or included in a package. I have not been able to find any examples of the high quality ones. However - obviously, they are available. So why can't I find examples of them on-line? I am not planning on selling mine - but if I did, it would be hard to convince a buyer that they are worth considerably more than $69.99 - if that's the only reference available. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeH Posted September 17, 2018 Report Share Posted September 17, 2018 Are they stamped bows? If so, does the stamp (or frog) indicate the relative quality the manufacturer assigned to the bows? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rue Posted September 17, 2018 Author Report Share Posted September 17, 2018 59 minutes ago, GeorgeH said: Are they stamped bows? If so, does the stamp (or frog) indicate the relative quality the manufacturer assigned to the bows? Yes. The "relative value" stamps are totally inconsistent between makers/factories as far as I have been able to discern. And, dare I say it, irrelevant if you can't find any source to check against! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duane88 Posted September 17, 2018 Report Share Posted September 17, 2018 3 hours ago, Rue said: Yes. The "relative value" stamps are totally inconsistent between makers/factories as far as I have been able to discern. And, dare I say it, irrelevant if you can't find any source to check against! And that might be the idea. I have friends who label/stamp instruments and bows sold through their shop with shop names. I can think of one provider to the trade who used to give you the option of: 1-no label, 2-a label with a name that is guaranteed to not show up in any printed violin reference text. Can't find the name on the interwebs, can't price compare. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deans Posted September 17, 2018 Report Share Posted September 17, 2018 Why do you think they are a better grade? What did you pay for them? How did the seller describe them? Keep your receipts. Perhaps they are bows that were part of a package, maybe from China? If so, don't lose any more sleep, just keep playing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rue Posted September 18, 2018 Author Report Share Posted September 18, 2018 8 hours ago, duane88 said: And that might be the idea. I have friends who label/stamp instruments and bows sold through their shop with shop names. I can think of one provider to the trade who used to give you the option of: 1-no label, 2-a label with a name that is guaranteed to not show up in any printed violin reference text. Can't find the name on the interwebs, can't price compare. Yes - I also have a couple of shop-labeled bows, from many years ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rue Posted September 18, 2018 Author Report Share Posted September 18, 2018 (edited) 15 hours ago, deans said: Why do you think they are a better grade? What did you pay for them? How did the seller describe them? Keep your receipts. Perhaps they are bows that were part of a package, maybe from China? If so, don't lose any more sleep, just keep playing. They appear to be well crafted. I paid more... The seller didn't describe them... I think I may still have the receipts somewhere. Why? They weren't useful at the point of purchase, and probably less useful now. Not part of a package, but may well come from China - who's to know? That is partly why I'm asking. Not losing any sleep - just trying to learn more about the business. BTW: These 2 'better' bows do play better than the 'average' lower end student bows that I also have (part of the package deal) kicking around. However, I have also lucked out on a couple of 'cheap' bows I bought directly from China (as part of my equipment exploration). One of those is actually just as good as the expensive bows. My observations are made on both violin and viola bows. And no...I don't have THAT many of them in total...just seems like it...lol. BUT, my best bow is a recent purchase - made by an individual bow maker, not a factory. Hands-down winner (for me). I was surprised at the obvious difference I could hear/feel while playing. Edited September 18, 2018 by Rue Added more observations...just because I can... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duane88 Posted September 18, 2018 Report Share Posted September 18, 2018 9 hours ago, Rue said: BUT, my best bow is a recent purchase - made by an individual bow maker, not a factory. Hands-down winner (for me). I was surprised at the obvious difference I could hear/feel while playing. She would be pleased to hear that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deans Posted September 18, 2018 Report Share Posted September 18, 2018 9 hours ago, Rue said: I think I may still have the receipts somewhere. Why? Thought they might indicate what they are. Only think I can think is to take them to an appraiser. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff White Posted September 19, 2018 Report Share Posted September 19, 2018 13 hours ago, duane88 said: She would be pleased to hear that. C'mon guys...give her up..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rue Posted September 19, 2018 Author Report Share Posted September 19, 2018 22 hours ago, duane88 said: She would be pleased to hear that. 8 hours ago, Jeff White said: C'mon guys...give her up..... Maybe later... But it is certainly a confirmation of the value and performance of fine craftsmanship. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rue Posted September 19, 2018 Author Report Share Posted September 19, 2018 21 hours ago, deans said: Thought they might indicate what they are. Only think I can think is to take them to an appraiser. Since these are newish factory bows - probably not worth the $$$ it would cost to find an appraiser, travel to said appraiser and pay them. But it is always an option! But I still don't see the advantage - for a factory - to have no reference for their better bows on-line and just the least expensive models. Just making up these figures to illustrate my point: If I pay $1000 for my J. Doe stamped bow - from an established/reputable retailer, but all I can find on-line are $50 J. Doe bows - I will feel either very confused or very ripped off - if I can't find a reason for it all. So why would the factory "hide" the fact that they produce several quality levels of bows? Why wouldn't they advertise this? Isn't it better for all those buying a low end bow to have the perception that they purchased something from a company that also produces high end products than have the purchasers of the high end product wondering if/by how much they might have overpaid? ...or maybe I am the only one wondering about such things... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeH Posted September 19, 2018 Report Share Posted September 19, 2018 9 minutes ago, Rue said: If I pay $1000 for my J. Doe stamped bow - from an established/reputable retailer, but all I can find on-line are $50 J. Doe bows - I will feel either very confused or very ripped off - if I can't find a reason for it all. Doesn't it depend if J.Doe Bow Company is still making bows? Or if their catalog is available? Can you see a difference between your $1000 J. Doe stamped bow and the $50 J. Doe bows? Some of the modern bow producers do distinguish between their grades of bows by stamps, frogs, stick wood, mountings, and buttons. (See Dörfler bows and Hermann Luger bows as examples.) By the way, poor quality counterfeit bows by makers such as "M. Raposo" and "John Brazil" are fairly common now. So the $50 J. Doe bows you're seeing may be counterfeits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rue Posted September 19, 2018 Author Report Share Posted September 19, 2018 Perhaps they are counterfeit, but one would think that reputable companies would be able to avoid the counterfeits, since - I assume - they buy from the 'real' company directly. I'm not talking about individual or shady eBay-type sellers. So, if I go to a John Deere dealership to buy John Deere tractor parts, I'm fairly confident they are selling real John Deere tractor parts - and didn't go and buy knock-offs from Jon Deare.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deans Posted September 19, 2018 Report Share Posted September 19, 2018 One more suggestion. Contact the bow manufacturer and ask them, assuming of course we are talking about recent production. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rue Posted September 19, 2018 Author Report Share Posted September 19, 2018 57 minutes ago, deans said: One more suggestion. Contact the bow manufacturer and ask them, assuming of course we are talking about recent production. I could try and do that...if I could find them. Wholesale seems to be another secret kept from the average retail consumer. But, I'm more interested in the overall industry/advertising/marketing/approach than in tracking down my two examples. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Dorsey Posted September 19, 2018 Report Share Posted September 19, 2018 Are you sure that the name stamped on these bows is that of a bow factory? Perhaps it's the name of a wholesaler, dealer or importer who obtains bows of varying qualities from various sources, stamps them and prices them according to quality or marketing considerations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rue Posted September 19, 2018 Author Report Share Posted September 19, 2018 I was using the term 'bow factory' loosely. Since it's all a bit of a mystery, I really don't know what's up. If it helps get me an answer, one of these bows is W.R. Wild, which I think is Gewa...but I'm not 100% certain. Again, doesn't really matter, since my question is about marketing... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duane88 Posted September 19, 2018 Report Share Posted September 19, 2018 1 hour ago, Rue said: Perhaps they are counterfeit, but one would think that reputable companies would be able to avoid the counterfeits, since - I assume - they buy from the 'real' company directly. I'm not talking about individual or shady eBay-type sellers. So, if I go to a John Deere dealership to buy John Deere tractor parts, I'm fairly confident they are selling real John Deere tractor parts - and didn't go and buy knock-offs from Jon Deare.... But John Deere might have outsourced parts production to Jon Deare who now had the dies and numbers, and some employee might pass that info on to their friend who starts making fake John Deere products. Don't forget to consider that a good many bow stamped with Nurnburger and Pfretzschner were actually made by former employees who provided them to the old company, unstamped, to fulfill orders, and I bet that they didn't leave the workshop unstamped. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JacksonMaberry Posted September 19, 2018 Report Share Posted September 19, 2018 3 hours ago, Rue said: Maybe later... But it is certainly a confirmation of the value and performance of fine craftsmanship. She would probably appreciate the word of mouth endorsement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duane88 Posted September 19, 2018 Report Share Posted September 19, 2018 2 minutes ago, Rue said: I was using the term 'bow factory' loosely. Since it's all a bit of a mystery, I really don't know what's up. If it helps get me an answer, one of these bows is W.R. Wild, which I think is Gewa...but I'm not 100% certain. Again, doesn't really matter, since my question is about marketing... The W.R.Wild bows look a lot like things from the Dorfler workshop, to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duane88 Posted September 19, 2018 Report Share Posted September 19, 2018 3 minutes ago, JacksonMaberry said: She would probably appreciate the word of mouth endorsement. Doubtful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rue Posted September 19, 2018 Author Report Share Posted September 19, 2018 6 minutes ago, JacksonMaberry said: She would probably appreciate the word of mouth endorsement. Not everything needs to be public all the time. And this is is about marketing of 'factory' bows (or whatever one calls them). 2 minutes ago, duane88 said: Doubtful. Yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rue Posted September 19, 2018 Author Report Share Posted September 19, 2018 6 minutes ago, duane88 said: The W.R.Wild bows look a lot like things from the Dorfler workshop, to me. Well, that's part of what I'm wondering...does Dorfler count as a 'bow factory' and do they sell to Gewa, and does Gewa stamp them as W.R. Wild? I've found Wild bows ranging from 50 Euros to 500 Euros (just last week). But back when I bought mine, I could only find the $50 ones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JacksonMaberry Posted September 19, 2018 Report Share Posted September 19, 2018 I'll have to take your word for it. I know only that I appreciate people publicly saying nice things about my work. I shouldn't assume everyone is of the same mind. At any rate, sorry to contribute to the off-topic tangent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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