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Lancelot

Who can read and recognize this NAME?

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In my eyes there's nothing baroque or 17th century (I'm guessing you thought more correctly of the 18th) on it, just overstand and angle of the neck would exclude such an age. Through necks were common at least in the late 19th/around 1900 period. Also belly and bottom share the same clumsy corners and inked purfling what makes it most probable that they were made by the same hand at the same time.

We had a thread about such autodidactical work and how easily it can give the impression of a much higher age than it actually has:

 

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1 hour ago, Lancelot said:

Right Martin! , and your suggestion lead me to think that this is the name of the reparer. Look at the back of the table. Further more, it is probably the name of table’s maker. The table appears to be a recent work ,she has  not big  sign of use, wich is not the case of the belly. The body of the instrument had been totaly revarnished. The neck and back in my opinion would be from the XVII, with good signs of use on the belly, and of tools on the neck. The neck is of course « baroque » only glued (so not XVIII ), and the way it is done show that they were not as many rules  as later. Not an « amateur » but an unknown maker. 

You lead me to scrute the « paperwood » . In fact it is the original  label: I can see M.H faciat , or something like this, I go very carefuly for cleaning, I don’t like this, I fear the consequences of that. 

Let’s look at the pics. 

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The neck seems the most modern part to me... am I missing something?  The “table” you refer to is the back plate wood addition?  And what “paperwood” are you referencing?

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3 hours ago, Blank face said:

In my eyes there's nothing baroque or 17th century (I'm guessing you thought more correctly of the 18th) on it, just overstand and angle of the neck would exclude such an age. Through necks were common at least in the late 19th/around 1900 period. Also belly and bottom share the same clumsy corners and inked purfling what makes it most probable that they were made by the same hand at the same time.

We had a thread about such autodidactical work and how easily it can give the impression of a much higher age than it actually has:

 

Ok , so what do you think of such a wear on the belly? 

It appears to be interesting, so I  choose to do a fast cleaning of the neck

Further more, for  the mitre as said delabo, the belly has been cut, the ribs had been forced into the viola when putting the neck newly cut on his base to overstand the angle. The neck has been slightly modified under the finger board too, and strongly near the button. (Sorry for my poor english ;) )

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1 hour ago, martin swan said:

Porterfield anyway ...!

I'm supposing this means something like "never mind any reasoning, it's still the same".:P

I don't see at this unfocused photos what you're talking about, but it's useless to speculate about some tool marks, roughly sawed outlines or whatever what makes the viola to something what it clearly isn't. I can see absolutely no evidence that the neck root was moved or altered ever, or the neck angle raised (the drawing and points at the pegbox don't make any sense for whatever they are meant in my understanding), but even in case it won't change anything.

It has a small affinity to some Salzkammergut instruments with inked purfling, but I doubt that they, even at cheap and nasty pieces, had made such corners there.

As a viola in a rather good condition (if restored once) it's not uninteresting and not without a certain value, but the first step would be to realize that it isn't what an overoptimistic mind wants it to be.

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I don't think it's composite - both front and back have the same inked purfling to my eye.

The signature on the inside of the table is Porterfield, surely a repairer's signature. For the rest, I don't think there's much reason to try to find out where it was made - it follows no obvious school of making, and if it's as we suspect an amateur affair, it can't really serve any nationalist agenda since it does no credit to its maker ...

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36 minutes ago, Blank face said:

I'm supposing this means something like "never mind any reasoning, it's still the same".:P

I don't see at this unfocused photos what you're talking about, but it's useless to speculate about some tool marks, roughly sawed outlines or whatever what makes the viola to something what it clearly isn't. I can see absolutely no evidence that the neck root was moved or altered ever, or the neck angle raised (the drawing and points at the pegbox don't make any sense for whatever they are meant in my understanding), but even in case it won't change anything.

It has a small affinity to some Salzkammergut instruments with inked purfling, but I doubt that they, even at cheap and nasty pieces, had made such corners there.

As a viola in a rather good condition (if restored once) it's not uninteresting and not without a certain value, but the first step would be to realize that it isn't what an overoptimistic mind wants it to be.

Lol

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24 minutes ago, martin swan said:

I don't think it's composite - both front and back have the same inked purfling to my eye.

The signature on the inside of the table is Porterfield, surely a repairer's signature. For the rest, I don't think there's much reason to try to find out where it was made - it follows no obvious school of making, and if it's as we suspect an amateur affair, it can't really serve any nationalist agenda since it does no credit to its maker ...

Damn, Martin!  You’re a magician... once you said “Porterfield,” it was like I had a cataract removed!  Clarity!! That made my afternoon, as that signature was driving me crazy.  FYI, I am the type of person that will tirelessly think about license plates I’ve seen that are abbreviations/acronyms, like they are riddles answering truths of the universe. 

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31 minutes ago, martin swan said:

I don't think it's composite - both front and back have the same inked purfling to my eye.

The signature on the inside of the table is Porterfield, surely a repairer's signature. For the rest, I don't think there's much reason to try to find out where it was made - it follows no obvious school of making, and if it's as we suspect an amateur affair, it can't really serve any nationalist agenda since it does no credit to its maker ...

 

31 minutes ago, martin swan said:

I don't think it's composite - both front and back have the same inked purfling to my eye.

The signature on the inside of the table is Porterfield, surely a repairer's signature. For the rest, I don't think there's much reason to try to find out where it was made - it follows no obvious school of making, and if it's as we suspect an amateur affair, it can't really serve any nationalist agenda since it does no credit to its maker ...

Having the instrument under my nose I am able to say with assurance that it has been totally revarnished. Of course when the purfling is painting, it is put ON the varnish. No problem to,have the same purfling , for a table made  «  Porterfield » and the others parts. 

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7 minutes ago, Blank face said:

So we have a new name for instruments of this kind "It's from Porterfield":D

YES ; I THINK YOU FOUND THE NAME ;) Thank you all, 

is this the name of a city, of a maker, ? sure it is the name of the table!  I would think of the maker of the table, because of the letter before the P ; 

 

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G Porterfield made the table, and he overstood the angle, because the table 

28 minutes ago, Lancelot said:

Lol

What I told about the work on this viola is clearly an evidence , and I am strongly able to cut my arm in front of you, if you would be able to demonstrate I am wrong. ( i hope you won’t ;) ) 

Every thing is quite easy to see and to understand, there is ALWAYS a sign of what happened on an instrument. Just look at it clearly, think, and you will understand. 

No matter about the value, it is not interesting, just what it is, where from, and when did they do, this one or another, 

what was the purpose of the men who work on it, what were the rules they had to do this way or another, just take place of the maker, read the instrument step by step . 

Two days ago without care , i thought it was a  viola made during the XIX century,  from anywhere,  and I had a problem with this name «  porteasielo » lol— and another problem with the  « paper wood » stick as a paper label on the belly.

today I looked at it for the first time, I am sure of  the elements I saw, and what I say about it.

AND overall, I am very gratefull to you  to Find THE NAME, on the table,  Thanks all ;) 

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8 hours ago, ClefLover said:

The neck seems the most modern part to me... am I missing something?  The “table” you refer to is the back plate wood addition?  And what “paperwood” are you referencing?

Hi paperwood I mean the piece of wood put  in the center of the belly as a paper label : it is the black plate wood addition;) but used as a label as it seems to me. 

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8 hours ago, Addie said:

I like the idea of double doors in the back, for setting the sound post.  Or is it an ash dump? :lol:

 

Do you think it might have had little racks above them once, with tiny retractable hooks and an actuator system?   A kid could practice viola, and once Mommy's out of the room, bomb his toy fort at the same time. :ph34r:

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As I took many pictures of « the original label » it’s now possible to refer to this step,  So I ‘m going to clean it.as slightly as I can. (I don’t like that) There is few things write on it, , actually unlisible. very small characters. 

BUT it could be that the letters had been slightly engraved with a stylus in the wood, I hope so ...

In the same time I’ll take pics of the C, only the back.  I think the belly is not actually the most interesting part. 

 

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42 minutes ago, Lancelot said:

As I took many pictures of « the original label » it’s now possible to refer to this step,  So I ‘m going to clean it.as slightly as I can. (I don’t like that) There is few things write on it, , actually unlisible. very small characters. 

BUT it could be that the letters had been slightly engraved with a stylus in the wood, I hope so ...

In the same time I’ll take pics of the C, only the back.  I think the belly is not actually the most interesting part. 

 

Only saw one pic that seems to show small label fragments coincidentally, while you were showing the wood patches glued to the inside back.

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1 hour ago, Guido said:

Only saw one pic that seems to show small label fragments coincidentally, while you were showing the wood patches glued to the inside back.

So , funny , very ...

I found the last part of the original belly, cut and still in the neck ;)  ;)- 

I took new pics from the label,  it is truly a label writen on a woodenpiece +  looking at the scroll + the neck=   in my opinion this viola is from the 16th century, or the very begining of the 17th. 

If there is a date, ( long label)  could be the saint’s name of this day.  We remember  that it was another world, they were very christian people at this time,  the date was very often this way. I say that , I say nothing.

as the back is bird’s eye mapple, if there something writen on it, around the label, it is more difficult to determinate. 

 

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16 hours ago, martin swan said:

Porterfield anyway ...!

I don't normally hear voices in my head, but as I was scrolling down looking at the photos I heard Brian Moore shout.....

 

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