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Egidio Santos

Hybrid Spirit + Oil Varnish

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For a few reasons i've become quite fond of Spirit Varnish and it's applications, but there's one thing that still bothers me: It's easy to crack/scratch compared to oil varnish. 

So i though i would give a try on using some very thin oil varnish in between layers of spirit varnish. Any thoughts or experiences to share?

My Idea:
Vernice Bianca - 2 layers
Spirit - 1 Layer
Watercolor/Tincture 
-------------------------------
Oil on top of Spirit - 3x
-----------------------
French Polish

 

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1 hour ago, Egidio Santos said:

For a few reasons i've become quite fond of Spirit Varnish and it's applications, but there's one thing that still bothers me: It's easy to crack/scratch compared to oil varnish. 

So i though i would give a try on using some very thin oil varnish in between layers of spirit varnish. Any thoughts or experiences to share?

My Idea:
Vernice Bianca - 2 layers
Spirit - 1 Layer
Watercolor/Tincture 
-------------------------------
Oil on top of Spirit - 3x
-----------------------
French Polish

 

You really use watercolors ? 

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1 minute ago, Danube Fiddler said:

You really use watercolors ? 

For matching the colors on restorations, yes. Never used in a new varnish, but it would work the same.
I have some self made colors that is pretty much Vernice Bianca without the egg...

I've used brazilwood tincture (sometimes mixed with umber) for a few projects and i like the results...

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1 hour ago, Christopher Jacoby said:

Sure! let the oil dry with Uv and air movement a bit longer, so that you get no surprises when the next spirit layer dries

 

Thanks! I already add a few drops of essential oils on my Spirit varnish to slow down the drying so maybe it helps :)

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4 minutes ago, Egidio Santos said:

For matching the colors on restorations, yes. Never used in a new varnish, but it would work the same.
I have some self made colors that is pretty much Vernice Bianca without the egg...

I've used brazilwood tincture (sometimes mixed with umber) for a few projects and i like the results...

Interesting ! 

Brasilwood - alcohol-tincture was not lightfast in my own experiments. Did you use a solution or a Brasilwood-pigment, which has more lightfastness ?

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1 minute ago, Danube Fiddler said:

Interesting ! 

Brasilwood - alcohol-tincture was not lightfast in my own experiments. Did you use a solution or a Brasilwood-pigment, which has more lightfastness ?

I just heated pernambuco leftovers in denatured ethanol for a couple days (warming it up sometimes), then filtered, mixed with a bit of shellac keeping it very thin. I apply on top of 2-3 transparent coats and the result is a deep orange that can be quite transparent.

If you apply it on directly on the wood, or in a very thin ground, the color might change depending on what you are using... It can get pretty ugly.

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9 hours ago, Egidio Santos said:

I just heated pernambuco leftovers in denatured ethanol for a couple days (warming it up sometimes), then filtered, mixed with a bit of shellac keeping it very thin. I apply on top of 2-3 transparent coats and the result is a deep orange that can be quite transparent.

If you apply it on directly on the wood, or in a very thin ground, the color might change depending on what you are using... It can get pretty ugly.

 I did it in a similar way, but didn´t use heat and used 99,99 % isopropanol as solvent, if I remember right (many years ago ). Resins probably have been mastix, benzoe and Manila- copal. The colour didn´t stand one day in direct sunlight and changed into a very pale and weak brownish color. In my experience these redwood-colours like also santal-wood are and stay quite sensitive against alkali-influences. Within the (acidly) resins they are more on the reddish (nice) side, but after contact with some alkalic substances, which could also be rests of sweat - they can change into the more blue/pink side ( not so nice ). If used as pigments, this danger seems to be much lesser and lightfastness becomes better. I think, you must have had a very clever procedure to avoid these things. Is it possible, that heat makes the difference, because some protecting substances are additional solved, which are not soluble in cool alcohol ?

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4 minutes ago, Danube Fiddler said:

 I did it in a similar way, but didn´t use heat and used 99,99 % isopropanol as solvent, if I remember right (many years ago ). Resins probably have been mastix, benzoe and Manila- copal. The colour didn´t stand one day in direct sunlight and changed into a very pale and weak brownish color. In my experience these redwood-colours like also santal-wood are and stay quite sensitive against alkali-influences. Within the (acidly) resins they are more on the reddish (nice) side, but after contact with some alkalic substances, which could also be rests of sweat - they can change into the more blue/pink side ( not so nice ). If used as pigments, this danger seems to be much lesser and lightfastness becomes better. I think, you must have had a very clever procedure to avoid these things. Is it possible, that heat makes the difference, because some protecting substances are additional solved, which are not soluble in cool alcohol ?

The heat doesn't make that much difference, only helps to  extract more pigment and reduce the ticture to a more concentrated color that's easier to apply.
I think the concentration/thickness ratio is the important part here, that took a while to get it right, but still really not easy compared to pigments and very sensitive while not covered.

Honestly i can get similar and more stable results with other materials but i like to use it as a 'personal trait'. I always have a bag of shavings around from making bows...
I lived in that region of Brazil for a long time :)

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12 minutes ago, Egidio Santos said:

The heat doesn't make that much difference, only helps to  extract more pigment and reduce the ticture to a more concentrated color that's easier to apply.
I think the concentration/thickness ratio is the important part here, that took a while to get it right, but still really not easy compared to pigments and very sensitive while not covered.

Honestly i can get similar and more stable results with other materials but i like to use it as a 'personal trait'. I always have a bag of shavings around from making bows...
I lived in that region of Brazil for a long time :)

Thanks for explanations ! Perhaps I will repeat in some time a procedure with more concentration - I have read several times, that concentration would make a difference, even in the use of quite stable pigments.

You lived in a beautiful region :)

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On 9/9/2018 at 2:17 PM, Egidio Santos said:

So i though i would give a try on using some very thin oil varnish in between layers of spirit varnish. Any thoughts or experiences to share?

I tried something like that and loved it at first.  But after about a year or so, craquelure started showing up.  Interestingly, I actually liked the effect on this particular violin.

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9 hours ago, Kirk Hunter said:

I tried something like that and loved it at first.  But after about a year or so, craquelure started showing up.  Interestingly, I actually liked the effect on this particular violin.

Interesting, how deep are the cracks? I think they would be very supperficial, only on the final spirit layers?

Do you have some pictures? :)
 

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On 9/9/2018 at 11:17 PM, Egidio Santos said:

For a few reasons i've become quite fond of Spirit Varnish and it's applications, but there's one thing that still bothers me: It's easy to crack/scratch compared to oil varnish. 

So i though i would give a try on using some very thin oil varnish in between layers of spirit varnish. Any thoughts or experiences to share?

My Idea:
Vernice Bianca - 2 layers
Spirit - 1 Layer
Watercolor/Tincture 
-------------------------------
Oil on top of Spirit - 3x
-----------------------
French Polish

I had a very bad experience about it , cause the resins I used were soluble in the oil of the the top coats ( oil varnish ) , and when the brush touched the first coat of spirit ( of turpentine ) varnish layer , I couldn't even spread the oil varnish cause the oil was absorbed by the first coat  which have a strong affinity for oil... Just a disaster , with bubbles at the surface, an uneven colour distribution and horrible patchy areas that lacks transparency in some areas. The worst varnishing experience I had... 

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On 9/20/2018 at 1:50 PM, D. Piolle said:

I had a very bad experience about it , cause the resins I used were soluble in the oil of the the top coats ( oil varnish ) , and when the brush touched the first coat of spirit ( of turpentine ) varnish layer , I couldn't even spread the oil varnish cause the oil was absorbed by the first coat  which have a strong affinity for oil... Just a disaster , with bubbles at the surface, an uneven colour distribution and horrible patchy areas that lacks transparency in some areas. The worst varnishing experience I had... 

Maybe not dry enough? If i'm not mistaken spirits of turpentine take longer to dry than Ethanol. But in general that's exactly what happens with layers of spirit varnish, you only have a couple seconds to apply each layer before the previous one melts.

In general i'm happy with the results, i was able to get very thin finish and still get the soft look and feel of oil varnish. Let's see how it behaves after some time.
 

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