"german" saddle, why not?

[baroquecello]

I was happy to see this Photo, posted by @Guido in another thread, of an old fashioned german style saddle. If I've understood well, it was the prevalent type of saddle in Mittenwald for a long period, and was used in Markneukirchen occasionally. I quite like the look of it, (am I correct in asuming the purfling continues over the saddle?) and was wondering why it is no longer in use. It seems even on old fiddles that used to have this style of saddle, routinely the more common style of saddle is installed. I was wondering why. Is there a structural disadvantage to this saddle compared to what is standard nowadays? (standard nowadays would be inlaid in the top plate or cut out of the top plate and gleud onto the ribs and block)

[Guido]

Indeed, the saddle does not cut into the purfling and leaves it running uninterrupted.

Here is also another example, maybe 20 years younger.

I would speculate that this design may not work as well with the raised saddles as it may create a pivot on the edge of the plate. But not sure.

[Blank face]

I won't call it "german saddle", because it's found in french, Prague, Austrian and more origins, too. The Cremonese used, as far as I know, a similar saddle, but glued on the surface of the rib only.

The baroque tailpiece was hold in place with very thick tail guts, giving a wide clearing from the belly without any saddle overstand necessary.

I can't tell exactly the reason why it was changed to the more long (east-west direction) modern form, but I'm strongly assuming that it was to make it easier to remove the belly for repair from the lower block. If you've removed some dozens of the old type (without just cutting through), what can be a long lasting and annoying job if they are fitted and glued tightly, not to mention the additional tension due to shrinking processes, you might recognize some advantages of the new design.

[nathan slobodkin]

Another reason I would prefer the modern saddle is it gives another way to adjust string angle over the bridge and subsequent downward force on the top. 

[uncle duke]

2 hours ago, Blank face said:

 The Cremonese used, as far as I know, a similar saddle, but glued on the surface of the rib only.

I can't tell exactly the reason why it was changed to the more long (east-west direction) modern form, but I'm strongly assuming that it was to make it easier to remove the belly for repair from the lower block.

Low tension, low bridges and short necks were used long ago.   Apparently not much strength was needed.  

[Blank face]

This thread I had in mind, containing many most valuable informations about historical saddles

 

[JacksonMaberry]

10 hours ago, nathan slobodkin said:

Another reason I would prefer the modern saddle is it gives another way to adjust string angle over the bridge and subsequent downward force on the top. 

For what it's worth, with a level, "baroque" saddle, you can do the same thing by varying tailgut thickness, but with an admittedly narrower range of possibilities.

As cool as they look, I too am against saddles inlaid to the block and lower rib surface. More trouble than advantage, from my perspective. I am still on the fence about whether to have the saddle bottom on the block surface or "half-inlaid" on my own instruments.

[David Beard]

Very few original Cremona examples to look at.  But there are a few.

[JacksonMaberry]

Quite a variety! Thanks David.

[David Beard]

I'm thinking my the main difference is height, and how that changes the twisting forces on the saddle.  With a tall saddle, it tends to teist forward toward the bridge.  With a low saddle, the twist will be in the opposite direction.   So having the saddle extend downward, either inset into or resting on the ribs will resist the twisting for a low saddle.   But with a tall saddle it doesn't really work the same way. 

[baroquecello]

Thank you all for the reactions. I am happy some of you corrected my some of my inadequate undestanding of the subject. I still like these saddles, visually, but understand the technical Problems with them. I've never seen them on newly made baroque violins though, which I think is odd. Are there any examples of this type of saddle on Cellos?

[Borisravel]

I can confirm for french violins ! It's a typically 18th feature.

[Julian Cossmann Cooke]

12 hours ago, David Beard said:

Very few original Cremona examples to look at.  But there are a few.

Very helpful pics, David.  Many thanks!

[jacobsaunders]

I find the term „german“ saddle (notwithstanding inverted commas) in the title of this thread inappropriate and misleading, since, should one open ones eyes, one may see all sorts of various original saddles on violins from all sorts of geographies. „A German violin“ is another often heard abstract concept that means nothing. One could for instance say „European Violin“ and be just as accurate.

[ruben50]

I really like this saddle design because I think it can prevent what some call a stress crack on the top of a violin. What I think  is actually causing these crack is that the saddle slips which then presses on the top plate and causes the crack to form. With this design the glue  botton area is larger and  the lower lip of the saddle might even prevent it from moving if the glue give way. Just my theory..