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germain

Another violin ID quiz

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22 hours ago, germain said:

I guess Yamaha abandoned this project due to the fact that for that amount of money you can get a fine quality antique instrument.

That sort of makes sense.

What others have said in this thread was different.

For example, at least one post basically said that for that amount of money, one could get an antique instrument - and violin players want an instrument with a "name" on it.

That I can believe, but I find it dismaying.

So the question I'm left with from what you've said is, how different is what you've said from what they said?

That is: for that amount of money, one can get not only an antique instrument, but one of fine quality. How fine? Better quality than the YVN500S? After all, their advertising did try to suggest they had comparable quality not to $10,000 master violins, but to the multi-million dollar Strads and Guarneris.

If so, it was perfectly rational for Yamaha's product to be unsuccessful, and for violin players not to choose to purchase it. If not, then the issue is still preference for a "name" over sound quality.

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1 hour ago, Quadibloc said:

That sort of makes sense.

What others have said in this thread was different.

For example, at least one post basically said that for that amount of money, one could get an antique instrument - and violin players want an instrument with a "name" on it.

That I can believe, but I find it dismaying.

So the question I'm left with from what you've said is, how different is what you've said from what they said?

That is: for that amount of money, one can get not only an antique instrument, but one of fine quality. How fine? Better quality than the YVN500S? After all, their advertising did try to suggest they had comparable quality not to $10,000 master violins, but to the multi-million dollar Strads and Guarneris.

If so, it was perfectly rational for Yamaha's product to be unsuccessful, and for violin players not to choose to purchase it. If not, then the issue is still preference for a "name" over sound quality.

Everything is very relative. For example on one of the latest Tarisio auctions there was a Mario Gadda violin for $10,000 that sounded as good if not better than the top lot  $1,000,000 Guadagnini. This Yamaha sounds comparable to the Gadda and the Guadagnini. 

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2 hours ago, germain said:

Everything is very relative. For example on one of the latest Tarisio auctions there was a Mario Gadda violin for $10,000 that sounded as good if not better than the top lot  $1,000,000 Guadagnini. This Yamaha sounds comparable to the Gadda and the Guadagnini. 

That must have been a dog of a Guadagnini, since that wasn’t a particularly  good Mario Gadda!

How long did you play the Guad for? I missed it ...And were they both in the same room?

My take on Gaddas (we have one)  is that the good ones have a superficial charm but are monochromatic and unmalleable.

My take on Guadagninis (we have one) is that the good ones are some of the most successful concert instruments ever made.

 

 

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30 minutes ago, martin swan said:

That must have been a dog of a Guadagnini, since that wasn’t a particularly  good Mario Gadda!

How long did you play the Guad for? I missed it ...And were they both in the same room?

My take on Gaddas (we have one)  is that the good ones have a superficial charm but are monochromatic and unmalleable.

My take on Guadagninis (we have one) is that the good ones are some of the most successful concert instruments ever made.

 

 

I’m a violinist and an amateur collector/ enthusiast . I don’t have the same eye as Martin would for the craftsmanship of the instruments. What I know is that I’ve played 5 Gadda instruments 2 of which were fake in my humble opinion and 3 at Tarisio. The one in the March auction was the best sounding one.  

The Gudagnini offered in the same auction I tried in the same room for about 20/30 min. Of course it was an amazing instrument. They were both very close though as far as depth projection and articulation. Realistically speaking not worth the $990,000 difference for me as a player unless I were filthy rich looking for an investment or I were someone like Hilary Hahn- who by the way plays a Vuillaume. Honestly who in the top A list of performers plays a Guadagnini? Yes plenty of the B list players, concertmasters and some Juilliard faculty I used to study with...

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10 minutes ago, germain said:

... Honestly who in the top A list of performers plays a Guadagnini? ...

Lara St. John...

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9 minutes ago, Rue said:

Lara St. John...

I don’t mean to be disrespectful but Lara St. John although a fine musician was never an A list soloist even in her prime 20 years ago. I am talking about performers such as Perlman, Kremer, Vengerov, Repin, Kavakos, Zneider, Zimmermann, Bell, Mutter. They all play Strads or Del Gesu. 

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42 minutes ago, germain said:

They all play Strads or Del Gesu. 

Sounds familiar.   flog.gif.d1cc086038e7d8823e5a8998483df57c.gif

Are we going to discuss this again? popcorn-and-drink-smiley-emoticon.gif.a3a0748ba683eaacad54f6728769156a.gif

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3 minutes ago, PhilipKT said:

Let’s discuss whether this Yamaha model was offered as a cello or only as a violin? I did ask earlier.

A quick Google search resulted in:

Yes. Yamaha makes cellos. Dunno how the models relate to each other. You could email them and ask.

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2 hours ago, germain said:

Honestly who in the top A list of performers plays a Guadagnini?

I thought there were A list players who played Bergonzis and Montagnanas, because there just aren't enough Stradivariuses and Guarneris to go around any more.

I hadn't heard of Lara St. John, but Vanessa-Mae, although she uses a modern electronic violin for her pop music, uses a Guadagnini for classical work. I've seen it written that the only three makers whose violins are "solid" choices, whatever that means, for a soloist are Stradivari, Guarneri, and Guadagnini. Since I've heard of A-list players using still others, I wasn't sure if that was really true.

In the case of cellos, and maybe violas, A-list players may be using Guadagninis because of a more intense lack of alternatives.

Checking, I see two other names that were somewhat familiar: David Garrett and Viktoria Mullova.

This article lists five more, but two are cellists. The violinists listed there with Guadagninis are Simone Porter, Geraldine Walther, and Li-Kuo Chang.

Edited by Quadibloc
Additional performers named

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2 hours ago, germain said:

I’m a violinist and an amateur collector/ enthusiast . I don’t have the same eye as Martin would for the craftsmanship of the instruments. What I know is that I’ve played 5 Gadda instruments 2 of which were fake in my humble opinion and 3 at Tarisio. The one in the March auction was the best sounding one.  

The Gudagnini offered in the same auction I tried in the same room for about 20/30 min. Of course it was an amazing instrument. They were both very close though as far as depth projection and articulation. Realistically speaking not worth the $990,000 difference for me as a player unless I were filthy rich looking for an investment or I were someone like Hilary Hahn- who by the way plays a Vuillaume. Honestly who in the top A list of performers plays a Guadagnini? Yes plenty of the B list players, concertmasters and some Juilliard faculty I used to study with...

Julia Fischer plays a guad. Not really a B list player.

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3 hours ago, germain said:

 Honestly who in the top A list of performers plays a Guadagnini? 

I believe Popper played a Guadagnini cello, at least at times. But for cellos it really seems to me that the "top" makers are not quite the same as for violins, at least if you go by what the top player use/used. Something something better shipwrights...

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15 minutes ago, Amateur Dieudonne said:

You must mean like Gofriller, then..........

And Montagnana, which I have heard had some relationship to Gofriller, but I don't know if that is true or not. 

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Montagnana was a successor of Gofriller in the Venetian school and a Strad cello template is marked 'Venetian school'

which could only have been a Gofriller in 1710 which is the period the template is attributed to.

I have heard a Gofriller up close and personal and it left an impression on me. 

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the sad thing is marketing and hype is so prevalent in this business that even rank amateurs are sounding like marketing flaks.

The whole notion that A-list soloists by definition play on Strads or Guarneris is circular marketing thinking. I.e. if you want people to think you've made the A-list you need to advertise yourself as having "fallen in love at first sight" with a Strad. You don't have to think what you're going to say; the copy is available at the violin dealer.

Same with the ridiculous story about the Vienna Philharmonic having switched to a factory made type of violin. No doubt an ad picture was made with a bunch of VPO string players and Yamaha copy. But, seriously, the idea that these free individuals playing at the top of their profession will put their own, cherished instruments in the closet and change these for a anonymous instrument is just ridiculous.

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6 hours ago, Herman West said:

...But, seriously, the idea that these free individuals playing at the top of their profession will put their own, cherished instruments in the closet and change these for a anonymous instrument is just ridiculous.

But - but - but - what if it's true? [insert Twilght Zone music].

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Natalie Klein also plays on a Guadagnini.

all I’m saying is that I’ve had a lot of time wirh a great Mario Gadda and a great Guadagnini.

They inhabit different universes.

But if the Gadda at Tarisio was as good as a top Milan Guadagnini, I assume you bought it! Sounds like a complete steal ...

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6 hours ago, Herman West said:

But, seriously, the idea that these free individuals playing at the top of their profession will put their own, cherished instruments in the closet and change these for a anonymous instrument is just ridiculous.

I have never played in a symphony orchestra, but I wonder if orchestra players are all sneaking peaks inside at the labels of each others' violins?

Given the inability of most violinists to identify the origin and age of a particular violin, even on close inspection, I doubt that the OP's violin would raise any eyebrows at rehearsals if it plays well and sounds good, unless those brows were particularly high.

I do know that some (many? most?) orchestra players have separate instruments (including bows) for orchestra work to avoid damaging their most cherished and expensive instruments. 

 

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7 hours ago, Amateur Dieudonne said:

Montagnana was a successor of Gofriller in the Venetian school and a Strad cello template is marked 'Venetian school'

which could only have been a Gofriller in 1710 which is the period the template is attributed to.

I have heard a Gofriller up close and personal and it left an impression on me. 

My twisted sense of humor makes me imagine a conversation like "What? You want to buy one of our cello templates? Here, I will sell you our third best set." 

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7 hours ago, Herman West said:

But, seriously, the idea that these free individuals playing at the top of their profession will put their own, cherished instruments in the closet and change these for a anonymous instrument is just ridiculous.

But if these top professionals are given the opportunity to borrow something famous and unaffordable from a collector, I think they might just put their own cherished instruments out of sight, or not mention them very much... perhaps even written into the borrowing agreement?

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