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William Fry Internal Scraping Method

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6 hours ago, Danube Fiddler said:

In my impression QB is right: There are three old-italian makers with high importance for soloists and leading concertmasters. While we don´t need to discuss the importance of Stradivari and Guarneri-del-Gesú, the question is allowed, who follows after these both giants. While one can discuss, who could it be in quality - concerns ( Carlo Bergonzi ( may be equal to Stradivari/ Guarneri-del-Gesú ) / Montagnana / other members of the Guarneri-family/ G.B.Guadagnini and some others )  -  in regard of both, quality and prevalence of actual use by soloists or leading concertmasters, I think- it is G.B. Guadagnini. The reason could be, that Guadagnini had a relatively long life and made a large number of fine instruments.

One good example is Julia Fischer, who plays a Guadagnini since a lot of years - inspite of having played before the wonderful Booth-Strad - she seems to be quite happy with her Guadagnini !

You forget violin market forces. Almost no player today can afford to buy a Strad with his own money. in this sense the list of makers you mention becomes the next best choice. But does this mean those makers are equal to Strad and DG?

I heard that Gil Shaham backed out to buy a golden period Strad because of the price tag and the insurance cost linked to it. Instead he bought a Strad from the 1680s which was in his situation affordable. Are his performances worse using this instrument?

On the other hand we know as well that there are players who use the name of a Del Gesu or Strad as a marketing horse, though their performance quality is not really in the top ranking level. When I hear something like 'player x performs Ravels Tsigane on his/her famous-name-DG' I am asking myself 'Who is the performer here? Player x or the famous name DG?

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14 hours ago, Danube Fiddler said:

In my impression QB is right: ... While we don´t need to discuss the importance of Stradivari and Guarneri-del-Gesú, the question is allowed, who follows after these both giants.

You're contradicting yourself and also making my point.  Why do you think you started with S and G instead of S and Amati or G and Guad?  I give up.

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Back after a nice weekend among friends playing traditional Nordic (folk) music at the light house island Sälgrund in Finland. Interesting to read lots of comments with interesting view points.

I actually got interested in re-graduating instruments after causing (intentional) external damage to the varnish of a number of instruments noticing that external thinning of the varnish in some places clearly influenced the sound. The obvious conclusion of this is of course that a completed playable white violin can be "post" adjusted from the outside through scraping, sanding or some other method. It is also absolutely clear that it isn't possible to do random changes ... one has to know by experience which changes will improve or eliminate some perceived fault. A good violin is a violin where most of the faults have been eliminated ;) . Of course adjusting a white instrument in this way before varnishing can fix some problems in spite of changes introduced by later varnishing.

It is interesting to read (as the devil reads the Bible) that re-graduating an instrument from the inside can't change the instrument in any significant way. If this were true then all builders are doing completely unnecessary work by graduating the inside of the violin before it is assembled. Why not leave the underside flat or only remove material from the inside to eliminate mass. Of course this kind of thinking is pure BS. Cheap violins made for example using numerically controlled machinery generally aren't especially good even if the manufacturer used measurements from a very high level violin as a template. It is absolutely obvious that graduating the instrument changes its behavior I don't think any builder in the world assumes anything else. The big question is what graduation should be used for a specific piece of wood?

The reason why it looks like many different kinds of graduations (look at the number of graduation maps found from the net) work and produce usable/good instruments is that tuning specific areas requires the same kind of work process as tuning a string. We don't tune a violin for a potential customer by attaching new strings to the pegs and then checking a table how many tuns the pegs should be turned to produce GDAE tuning ... we all know that this simply doesn't work.  If we want to tune the relative strengths in tone of the different strings or the amplitude of specific tone ranges then, as I see it, the only working process is doing small changes and listening to the changes, that is tuning, using the ears. It simply isn't possible to use a fixed graduation map to build top instruments every time ... the proof is, I think, the number of beautifully built violins hanging on the builder's wall because they aren't possible to sell at a reasonable price due to different sound faults ... but where the builder don't want to open the instrument to try another graduation.

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16 hours ago, Bill Merkel said:

I don't know where you got the idea that Guad, or anybody else, is third.

Initially, I thought that maybe Carlo Bergonzi was third. As I learned more and read more, I encountered somewhere a statement that Stradivari, Guarneri, and Guadagnini were the three "solid" choices for a top-flight soloist; anything else would involve significant compromises.

I have been looking for that quote again, but I haven't been able to find it.

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1 hour ago, Bill Merkel said:

You're contradicting yourself and also making my point.  Why do you think you started with S and G instead of S and Amati or G and Guad?  I give up.

Although he is affirming that S and G are indeed the first two, you claimed that there was no "third", and so he was still contradicting the point of yours with which I also take issue.

Although I agree with you that in the popular consciousness, there is no visible third in violin-making. But in the more rarefied sphere of top-flight soloists, it is claimed that there is a definite rank-ordering of violin-makers that makes quite a long list which is uniform and predictable.

Whether it's based on hype or sound quality is not relevant to the question of whether it exists. So you may well be right that the popular consciousness tends to have just room for two, but that doesn't contradict the existence of a "third" for the purposes I was discussing.

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On 9/24/2018 at 12:58 AM, David Burgess said:

Sound is based solely on the karmic destiny of the maker, and nothing can be done about that, in a single lifetime. ;)

Does anyone have compelling evidence to the contrary? :wacko:

We need to come up with a tool to measure karmic value...
Probably the goat hanger can be used for that purpose B)

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13 hours ago, Andreas Preuss said:

You forget violin market forces. Almost no player today can afford to buy a Strad with his own money. 

I believe to not have forgotten it. It is a long time ago ( 5 or more decades ), that "normal" soloists could afford to buy a Strad or Guarneri-del-Gesú by their own money. May be only very few extraordinary world-known soloists like Anne-Sopie Mutter can, however even such not at the beginning of their career. It doesn´t matter, because there are many offers by foundations, banks or rich privat owners, to loan a Strad / Guarneri, if a known soloist needs it. So it kept the same in the last 50 years : normally a soloist or prominent concertmaster could not afford a Strad, but he could play one. In the same time they often could afford a G.B.Guadagnini and apparently some decided to rather play an own Guadagnini than a loaned Strad - may be because they could buy a very fine Guadagnini, but not loan a very fine Strad. Anyways the list of prominent violinists in presence and history, playing and owning a Guadagnini is long. 

One reason for the special importance of G.B. Guadagnini i.m.o. could be, that he was one of the last great makers in the transition to modern time with yet appearing acoustical needs for larger concert-halls. He had both : he still had the knowledge of the old fine sound but he also yet had the chance/pressure of adaption to the modern concert-world. This desired combination seems to have existed mostly between 1700 until 1750 and then the old-fine-sound-knowledge seems to have slowly declined - probably caused by a big market-crisis. 

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19 hours ago, Bill Merkel said:

Approach it this way -- whose basic models are used -- almost always S or  G, traditionally anyway.  I'm sure it's changing though because of the modern understanding that there's more, or just for novelty.

Well okay...if you look at it THAT way...^_^

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Back to my original topic, I'm interested, for purely academic purposes, in acquiring a dozen or so cheap instruments, recording their tap tones (to eliminate bowing variables) and remove material internally from the intact instrument and see the tonal changes, if any.

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32 minutes ago, Danube Fiddler said:

I am afraid to not understand, what you mean. Are you thinking about the prevalence and quality of italian nutrition ?

I was wondering how linguini might compare with violins by Stradivari, Guarneri, Amati, and particularly Guadagnini, since the names sound somewhat similar. ;)

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25 minutes ago, David Burgess said:

I was wondering how linguini might compare with violins by Stradivari, Guarneri, Amati, and particularly Guadagnini, since the names sound somewhat similar. ;)

somehow an early Linguini, a 1734 Spaghetti or a 1687 Tortellini does not sound right :lol:

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On 9/25/2018 at 5:35 PM, Andreas Preuss said:

Though I don't find it even worth to discuss the ideas of Jack Fry

I can understand. It does appear that despite the media interest he generated, his research methodology concerning violins was unsound.

But, on the other hand, it is not as easy to dismiss Carleen Hutchins.

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12 hours ago, Emilg said:

somehow an early Linguini, a 1734 Spaghetti or a 1687 Tortellini does not sound right :lol:

 - over the week-end I was offered a modern Ravioli - unfortunately un-certified - reasonably cheap - so I swallowed and paid - so new that the orange varnish hadn't hardened - some came off on my fingers - quite tasty.

cheers edi

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2 hours ago, edi malinaric said:

 - over the week-end I was offered a modern Ravioli - unfortunately un-certified - reasonably cheap - so I swallowed and paid - so new that the orange varnish hadn't hardened - some came off on my fingers - quite tasty.

cheers edi

with Ravioli, it's best to go for the most recent ones, they do not age very well ^_^

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15 hours ago, Bill Merkel said:

If you don't get back to work, you'll be contemplating Ramen, like me.

:lol:

1 hour ago, edi malinaric said:

 - over the week-end I was offered a modern Ravioli - unfortunately un-certified - reasonably cheap - so I swallowed and paid - so new that the orange varnish hadn't hardened - some came off on my fingers - quite tasty.

cheers edi

Speaking of color coming off on your fingers, have you tried Cheetos for coloring varnish? If so,  did you simply make a Cheeto tincture,  or did you need use a mordant... make a Cheeto lake to render it lightfast?

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On ‎8‎/‎16‎/‎2018 at 7:57 PM, Michael_Molnar said:

 I really do not know what to say to those audiences that claim he substantially changed a violin's output.

 

On ‎8‎/‎16‎/‎2018 at 11:14 PM, David Burgess said:

Nor do I, aside from the observation that beliefs can have major impacts on perceived outcomes.

Just tried to watch the video and I feel the same way. But I feel the same way about 'bridge tuning' too, that the claims made are spurious and based on expectations rather than actual real 'improvements'. I too have imagined tonal improvements, only to notice 10 minutes later it was all in my head.

Someone please convince me that 'bridge tuning' is an actual thing and not a delusion.

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2 hours ago, sospiri said:

Someone please convince me that 'bridge tuning' is an actual thing and not a delusion.

not sure what you mean by 'bridge tuning', but the job of fitting a bridge involves removing wood from many critical places on the bridge blank, and most of that effort is to improve the sound the violin produces.  You can't just slap a bridge blank on a belt sander and expect it to have the same outcome as a job done with sharp tools, care and precision, and a wealth of experience.  I'm still just learning...

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Does anyone happen to know what "Fry Scraping" looks like?

I am curious if the image below fits the bill, or if it is another form of vandalism entirely... 

FryScraping.thumb.jpg.acbfbbc87d2193d1964ae04bdb8b0ecd.jpg

It isn't obvious from the image, but below the obvious scarification marks are others that run with the grain and that have somewhat softer edges - as if sanded - which had me wondering.

 

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3 hours ago, sospiri said:

Someone please convince me that 'bridge tuning' is an actual thing and not a delusion.

23 minutes ago, David Burgess said:

It is.

How'd I do? ;)

Not very convincing.

However, it's pretty clear that one can "tune" certain frequencies of a bridge, such as clamping the feet in a vise and adjusting thicknesses until the lateral rocking frequency hits a certain value.  Similarly, plate modes can be tuned to various frequencies.

The difficult part is finding convincing objective evidence of what these exercises do to the complete instrument, and even more difficult to convincingly demonstrate the desirability of the result.

 

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