Mittenwald Violin ID


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There were hundreds of 18th/early 19th century makers in Mittenwald and it's guesswork to ascribe an unsigned instrument to a particular maker. Of course it's very popular to baptize them Klo(t)z, just because this is the most reknown family name, like it's Hopf for the Saxon area .

How a real Georg Kloz II looks like you can see here

http://www.geigenbaumuseum-mittenwald.de/index.php?id=176

http://www.geigenbaumuseum-mittenwald.de/index.php?id=143

and IMO your violin has nothing to do with this exceptional neatly worked violins.

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8 minutes ago, Blank face said:

There were hundreds of 18th/early 19th century makers in Mittenwald and it's guesswork to ascribe an unsigned instrument to a particular maker. Of course it's very popular to baptize them Klo(t)z, just because this is the most reknown family name, like it's Hopf for the Saxon area .

How a real Georg Kloz II looks like you can see here

http://www.geigenbaumuseum-mittenwald.de/index.php?id=176

http://www.geigenbaumuseum-mittenwald.de/index.php?id=143

and IMO your violin has nothing to do with this exceptional neatly worked violins.

How about Hornsteiner?

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It is interesting to read Peters remarks on the wood (not the violin). He mentions the “Oztal in Austria” (spelt Ötztal here), without committing himself. This leaves me remembering a controversy about 20 years ago, where a perfectly preserved mummified stone-age hunter was spewed out by the glacier there. He (the mummy) was swiftly christened “Ötzi” by all the tabloid papers, but there was a bitter fight if “Ötzi” was an Austrian, or an Italian (where the glacier comes from). The Lord Mayor put it the best (I thought) when he said that Ötzi isn't an Austrian or an Italian, but a Tiroler! When in Mittenwald, one soon realises that the place is surrounded by mountains of best violin belly wood, and wonders what sort of fanatic would shove himself some wood there all the way from the Ötztal on his wheelbarrow.

 

To the violin: One wonders why someone seems to have taken a bite out of the back (next to the chin rest). If Alexander would like to drop in to Klosterneuburg, I have a Georg Klotz Senior laying around which we could check it out against, should he wish.

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19 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

It is interesting to read Peters remarks on the wood (not the violin). He mentions the “Oztal in Austria” (spelt Ötztal here), without committing himself. This leaves me remembering a controversy about 20 years ago, where a perfectly preserved mummified stone-age hunter was spewed out by the glacier there. He (the mummy) was swiftly christened “Ötzi” by all the tabloid papers, but there was a bitter fight if “Ötzi” was an Austrian, or an Italian (where the glacier comes from).

 

As I have in mind one of Ötzis most important belongings was a half completed bow. So if he had possesed a sort of pre-historic violin, too, we could argue if it was the beginning of the Italian or Tyrolean bowed instrument making.

In modern times it could be difficult for him to cross this border, because by his genetics he was of a southeast-mediterranean origin, I'm supposing.:huh:

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31 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

To the violin: One wonders why someone seems to have taken a bite out of the back (next to the chin rest). If Alexander would like to drop in to Klosterneuburg, I have a Georg Klotz Senior laying around which we could check it out against, should he wish.

Good questions regarding the bite out of the back. Thank you for the invitation, will definitely come!

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14 minutes ago, Richf said:

FWIW, my recollection from visiting the fascinating archaeological museum in Bolzano (where Otzi resides) is that a DNA analysis indicated his closest living relatives would be from Sardinia.  

That's a misinterpretation. It means, that his closest living relatives actually are from Sardinia, but only from his mothers side.

Both mother's and father's genetics are pointing to ancestors from the Near East, once coming as farmers to Europe, not from the older indigene European hunters and collectors. The melting pot isn't an american invention.:)

In Austrian/German:

https://www.profil.at/wissenschaft/oetzi-gene-erkenntnisse-8400265

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19 minutes ago, Richf said:

FWIW, my recollection from visiting the fascinating archaeological museum in Bolzano (where Otzi resides) is that a DNA analysis indicated his closest living relatives would be from Sardinia.  

Possibly goes to show that DNA analysis is about as much use as „Dendro“

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28 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

Possibly goes to show that DNA analysis is about as much use as „Dendro“

 

Over here DNA analysis is solving violent crime sprees decades old, and vindicating people convicted of crimes they didn't commit. If I had a criminal past and felt that I got away with it, I'd be pretty uneasy in my sleep these days.

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4 hours ago, jacobsaunders said:

It is interesting to read Peters remarks on the wood (not the violin). He mentions the “Oztal in Austria” (spelt Ötztal here), without committing himself.

Why "Interesting"? Isn't that what I should be doing in a dendrochronological report? (ie. commenting on the wood rather than the violin)

I mention Oztal or  Ötztal, because that is where one of the most widely used regional published reference comes from, and it is the one that obtains the most significant statistical response (from these published references). This means that what I write can be checked by others if they so wish.


I have no doubt that Mittenwald makers used wood from their surrounding valleys, and did not travel to Oetztal to get what they could on their doorstep.  As far as I know, no regional Master reference specifically from Mittenwald has been published and, as mentioned, the most significant result in this case happens to be with a publicly available regional Master chronology from Obergurgl/Ötztal. 

Yeah... I can't even tell the exact spot where the tree grew...

3 hours ago, jacobsaunders said:

Possibly goes to show that DNA analysis is about as much use as „Dendro“

:)

 

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10 hours ago, Ratcliffiddles said:

Why "Interesting"? Isn't that what I should be doing in a dendrochronological report? (ie. commenting on the wood rather than the violin)

I mention Oztal or  Ötztal, because that is where one of the most widely used regional published reference comes from, and it is the one that obtains the most significant statistical response (from these published references). This means that what I write can be checked by others if they so wish.


I have no doubt that Mittenwald makers used wood from their surrounding valleys, and did not travel to Oetztal to get what they could on their doorstep.  As far as I know, no regional Master reference specifically from Mittenwald has been published and, as mentioned, the most significant result in this case happens to be with a publicly available regional Master chronology from Obergurgl/Ötztal. 

Yeah... I can't even tell the exact spot where the tree grew...

:)

 

The Dendro bumpf presented with the violin, mentions in passing “data from the Oztal (sic) in Austria, as well as other Alpine references”. Those of us with any long experience in the trade, can expect Mr Nantchev, or subsequent purveyors of this violin to hawk this violin's wood as being from the Ötztal, although you letter falls far short of actually saying that. The only slightly helpful part would be the age, although I would have thought any blind bat can see that the violin is from the end of the 18th C.

 

With the DNA it is much the same. Vague suggestions that Ötzi's ancestorship might have come from Sardinia or the Near East or from Tirol, as well as speculations that he might have been a hunter/gatherer, a farmer or a travelling salesman don't stop the “Profil” article from insinuating far reaching conclusions about stone age migration, without really any basis at all. I wonder what good any of this does.

 

 

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