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Does anyone NOT build Strad? And if not, why?


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23 minutes ago, Dave Slight said:

Omg, what utter nonsense :(

I assume you're referring to my post, which immediately preceded yours.

I did more searching, in hopes of finding images of his instruments from which plans could perhaps be made. There is only a brief description of him in the famous work "Italian Violin-Makers"; it does not include the information which gave me such hopes from various web sites, but merely says that he made instruments in the patterns of Niccolo Amati and Stradivari - rather than in the Amati-derived pattern of his own that I had read about.

So now I know I won't be able to use just any of his instruments as a model. Incidentally, I didn't mention that Tarisio or someone had an instrument of his for auction that had its f-holes further enlarged by someone after the fact, but the sound of which is claimed to have survived such tampering.

Ah, that instrument is actually at Florian Leonhard.

But indeed, my recommendation may be utter nonsense in practice for modern luthiers. I have found, on this page, a violin by a modern maker, made to the dalla Costa pattern, which has had to have been marked down from 2500 Euros to a measly 1100 Euros.

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21 minutes ago, Michael Szyper said:

Do you think she did also other work than scroll carving? To my eye the main evidence/eminence is that she did the leduc/wilton style scrolls.

I didn't say that she carved the Cannone scroll. I said that it's a half finished scroll. She might have cut the 40's funky f-holes though.

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1 minute ago, Torbjörn Zethelius said:

I didn't say that she carved the Cannone scroll. I said that it's a half finished scroll. She might have carved the funky f-holes though.

Yes i understood that. 

It is funny that there are 3 types of scrolls in del Gesus work as well as 3 types of f-holes. The first, rather Stradivari like, shorter ones. Then the longer f-holes divide in two parts: The long, but quite straight f-holes like the cannone, leduc, ole bull and then the longer, but very strong slanted ones, for example seen in the 1744 Prince of Orange.

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I might add that everything except the scroll on Il Cannone is perfectly made. Somebody took a half finished scroll from the heap to finish it up. Giuseppe might have had a bunch of finished and half finished violin parts laying around for maybe Katerina to finish and assemble. I have no theory of who carved the funky scrolls.

Edited by Torbjörn Zethelius
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3 hours ago, Torbjörn Zethelius said:

I suspect that in the 40's del Gesu got more and more assistance from his wife. Guess I'm not alone in thinking this. The Cannone has a half finished violin scroll. Interestingly, because we can see how he went about when carving it.

 

2 hours ago, Michael Szyper said:

Do you think she did also other work than scroll carving? To my eye the main evidence/eminence is that she did the leduc/wilton style scrolls.

My personal theory (which is not worth much outside of my workshop...) is that the heads like those of Leduc, Lord Wilton, Cariplo, etc. let's say with some Bergonzi's influence,  are really those made by him in complete freedom of expression.

After so many years under the eye and influence of his father trying to equalize it without succeeding (the best scrolls as technical execution are those of the first period and made by the father most likely) finally he could follow his irrepressible instinct and style and probably his attention to acoustics (clearly lightened scrolls).

The only scrolls of this late period that I would attribute to other hands are those like that of the Cannon (the worst and heaviest) but to attribute them to his wife seems to me decidedly not very elegant for a gentleman.....:rolleyes::lol:

I would probably say that the same is valid for F holes.

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2 hours ago, Quadibloc said:

I assume you're referring to my post, which immediately preceded yours.

I did more searching, in hopes of finding images of his instruments from which plans could perhaps be made. There is only a brief description of him in the famous work "Italian Violin-Makers"; it does not include the information which gave me such hopes from various web sites, but merely says that he made instruments in the patterns of Niccolo Amati and Stradivari - rather than in the Amati-derived pattern of his own that I had read about.

So now I know I won't be able to use just any of his instruments as a model. Incidentally, I didn't mention that Tarisio or someone had an instrument of his for auction that had its f-holes further enlarged by someone after the fact, but the sound of which is claimed to have survived such tampering.

Ah, that instrument is actually at Florian Leonhard.

But indeed, my recommendation may be utter nonsense in practice for modern luthiers. I have found, on this page, a violin by a modern maker, made to the dalla Costa pattern, which has had to have been marked down from 2500 Euros to a measly 1100 Euros.

It's like you're posting "investigative" opinions on the Lindberg kidnapping based on the FaceBook posts of a 16 year old shoplifter from Newark.:wacko:

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1 hour ago, Torbjörn Zethelius said:

However, I feel pretty certain that Giuseppe didn't have the artistic intention to transform his Cremonese heritage. Why would he do that? It was all an unfortunate accident which copyists are doing their best to preserve.

 

4 minutes ago, Davide Sora said:

 

My personal theory (which is not worth much outside of my workshop...) is that the heads like those of Leduc, Lord Wilton, Cariplo, etc. let's say with some Bergonzi's influence,  are really those made by him in complete freedom of expression.

After so many years under the eye and influence of his father trying to equalize it without succeeding (the best scrolls as technical execution are those of the first period and made by the father most likely) finally he could follow his irrepressible instinct and style and probably his attention to acoustics (clearly lightened scrolls).

The only srolls of this late period that I would attribute to other hands are those like that of the Cannon (the worst and heaviest) but to attribute them to his wife seems to me decidedly not very elegant for a gentleman.....:rolleyes::lol:

So we have opposite views. And you still haven't realised that the scroll on Il Cannone is good all the way up to the second turn. It's a scroll in the making. 

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11 minutes ago, Michael Jennings said:

It's like you're posting "investigative" opinions on the Lindberg kidnapping based on the FaceBook posts of a 16 year old shoplifter from Newark.

That bad, eh?

But boiled down, all I'm saying is this:

Some people here who are knowledgeable have stated that I had been misled by a generalization that claims violins with a high arching, although they may have a sweet sound, do not project well.

So many other factors in the design of a violin might make a violin with high arching not conform to the stereotype.

Well, from reputable statements, and this time they are on the Tarisio site, about the violins of Pietro Antonio dalla Costa, I may have found one of those factors - making the f-holes bigger.

But that I am trying to derive conclusions from data with an insufficient signal to noise ratio is a reality that is becoming more and more apparent to me by the day.

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8 minutes ago, Quadibloc said:

That bad, eh?

But boiled down, all I'm saying is this:

Some people here who are knowledgeable have stated that I had been misled by a generalization that claims violins with a high arching, although they may have a sweet sound, do not project well.

So many other factors in the design of a violin might make a violin with high arching not conform to the stereotype.

Well, from reputable statements, and this time they are on the Tarisio site, about the violins of Pietro Antonio dalla Costa, I may have found one of those factors - making the f-holes bigger.

But that I am trying to derive conclusions from data with an insufficient signal to noise ratio is a reality that is becoming more and more apparent to me by the day.

We have a Dalla Costa and of course I would praise it to the heavens, but the idea that it represents anything revolutionary or particularly outstanding is risible. 

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55 minutes ago, martin swan said:

We have a Dalla Costa and of course I would praise it to the heavens, but the idea that it represents anything revolutionary or particularly outstanding is risible. 

My earlier posts about that maker did indeed advance that "risible" notion, but the one you quoted boiled things down to something much more plausible - that larger f-holes may be a way to offset the reputed drawbacks of high arching. That Dalla Costa may have been only one of many makers who did this, and he just happened to be the first one I found out about, is perfectly possible without that conclusion being mistaken.

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9 hours ago, Quadibloc said:

My earlier posts about that maker did indeed advance that "risible" notion, but the one you quoted boiled things down to something much more plausible - that larger f-holes may be a way to offset the reputed drawbacks of high arching. That Dalla Costa may have been only one of many makers who did this, and he just happened to be the first one I found out about, is perfectly possible without that conclusion being mistaken.

You have got completely the wrong end of the stick. The f-holes on Florian ‘s Dalla Costa have been altered not enlarged. This was done because they were originally too close together ie. Poorly designed!

I’m sorry but you are hopelessly out of your depth. I really think your undeniable energy would serve the world better in some other context.

 

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10 hours ago, Torbjörn Zethelius said:

 

So we have opposite views. And you still haven't realised that the scroll on Il Cannone is good all the way up to the second turn. It's a scroll in the making. 

Evidently we do not have the same concept of "good".

I do not find any evidence that the Cannone's scroll is not finished, at least seen within the work of Del Gesù. There are other examples of this style of scroll, as the Carrodus. Recidivous in putting on scrolls finished in half? I don't think so.

Even in the Lord Wilton I see the traces of this style, in the turn too broad with respect to the volute.

Probably it's  just me, but I can not see any beauty (finished or unfinished) in the Cannone's head, to be honest it's just an ugly scroll.

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21 minutes ago, Davide Sora said:

Evidently we do not have the same concept of "good".

I do not find any evidence that the Cannone's scroll is not finished, at least seen within the work of Del Gesù. There are other examples of this style of scroll, as the Carrodus. Recidivous in putting on scrolls finished in half? I don't think so.

Even in the Lord Wilton I see the traces of this style, in the turn too broad with respect to the volute.

Probably it's  just me, but I can not see any beauty (finished or unfinished) in the Cannone's head, to be honest it's just an ugly scroll.

Yup, it’s brutal ... and very out of proportion with the rest of the violin

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When teaching, you come across different sorts of pupils.

There are those who are timid, who start a mile from the line, and gradually work down to it. They tend to leave everything really oversized and chunky, and you have to keep pushing them to take more away. 

Then there are those who cut away, chop happy, and when they stand back, they've gone too far. Inevitably they tidy up, several times over, till the edges are too thin, the scrolls scrawny and the f holes a bit big. I was one of them!

Del Gesu' s heads remind me of this.

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Yes, the Carrodus had the same treatment. Where you see ugliness, I see work in the making. The process went like this: a bunch of pegboxes including the first turn were finished. Right in that process something happened and Giuseppe was unable to finish them properly. Someone else, or Giuseppe himself due to failing eyesight as Melvin suggested, did the best they could.

Why would del Gesu go from his -37 style, which is his best period in my opinion, to this "complete freedom of expression". It does not make any sense. Yes, I know, I took that quote out of its context. 

Conor has a good point.

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23 minutes ago, Torbjörn Zethelius said:

es, the Carrodus had the same treatment. Where you see ugliness, I see work in the making. The process went like this: a bunch of pegboxes including the first turn were finished. Right in that process something happened and Giuseppe was unable to finish them properly. Someone else, or Giuseppe himself due to failing eyesight as Melvin suggested, did the best they could.

 

If he was not able to finish the scrolls because of eyesight issues then it would not be possible to do purfling, lining, f hole cutting. Therefore just anybody else had to make all his violins. I don’t see a complete change of style, but another interpretation of the same story. 

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49 minutes ago, Torbjörn Zethelius said:

Yes, the Carrodus had the same treatment. Where you see ugliness, I see work in the making. The process went like this: a bunch of pegboxes including the first turn were finished. Right in that process something happened and Giuseppe was unable to finish them properly. Someone else, or Giuseppe himself due to failing eyesight as Melvin suggested, did the best they could.

Why would del Gesu go from his -37 style, which is his best period in my opinion, to this "complete freedom of expression". It does not make any sense. Yes, I know, I took that quote out of its context. 

Conor has a good point.

This makes no sense to me, if the heads were prepared with the pegbox and the first turn finished, why leave the turn so wide if not for a definite choice,  if the aim was to get a scroll similar to those of the first period.

There would still be too much wood to remove.

I agree more with Conor, I see Del Gesù as his second case, "chop happy", for this reason I think the head of the Cannone is made by someone else more shy and unable to decide what to do and unable to finish it properly.

But Bartolomeo did not worry too much, I do not know if in a hurry or for other reasons that we will never know, but I imagine him to say: "what the heck, let's put this scroll already made on the violin" :D

I think he will have a lot of fun seeing all these skilled copyists who reproduce it slavishly and in serial way.

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I have to say I admire Quadibloc's entusiasm (and maybe shame on others who give harsh comments too?)

Quadibloc, you must start to make violins otherwise you shoot too much in the dark :)

I believe it's the only way to get the basic understanding to narrow down the frame of reference for your research, in the meantime continue exploring and reading...

 

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1 minute ago, David Burgess said:

You used to get harsh comments too, when you were more like him. ;)

B)  It's a journey to navigate in the mine field of MN.

I made a promise to be nice a while ago (I haven't always been nice to you). Hope being nice doesn't mean that I have to be a follower in the mainstream.

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16 minutes ago, Michael Szyper said:

If he was not able to finish the scrolls because of eyesight issues then it would not be possible to do purfling, lining, f hole cutting. Therefore just anybody else had to make all his violins. I don’t see a complete change of style, but another interpretation of the same story. 

It's evident to me that Del Gesu had help. I also think that he had a bunch of violin parts waiting to be assembled. An assistant would finish them, carving f-holes and scrolls and in some cases putting in purfling.

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37 minutes ago, Davide Sora said:

This makes no sense to me, if the heads were prepared with the pegbox and the first turn finished, why leave it so wide if not for a definite choice,  if the aim was to get a scroll similar to those of the first period.

In violin making school we learn to finish the volute before the pegbox, because we are obsessed with decoration (due to the copying illness). But for them function and structure came first, so the pegbox was finished before the volute was carved. It's a matter of saving time and energy. If the pegbox turns out to have a flaw in the wood and deemed unusable, scrap it and go on to the next. The volute is purely decorative, so don't waste time doing it the other way. That's what we see happening in the Cannone.

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