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El Duce

Bow marked France

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Hi I'm a bit sceptical of this but interested to hear thoughts. Light coloured bow marked FRANCE on the back underside of the stick. The adjuster is pinned and the frog has French stylistic traits but the adjuster has no ebony. Be interested to hear people's  thoughts as to origin. Thanks. 

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Bee as you say ,also called bee-wood in English, i suggest you read this

https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http://atelier-raffin.blogspot.com/2012/12/bois-dabeille-labandonne.html&prev=search

Here is a few  photos of some bow blanks of abeille, it varies alot in colour and tightness of grain, alot is brownish with light flecks of mineral deposits ,some is redder and tighter grained.

 

 

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16 minutes ago, PhilipKT said:

Also what does “abeille” mean?

 I looked it up, and it translates as “Bee”

Somehow I’m not sure that’s correct.

Also known as Manikara.  French bows are made from several types of wood (pernambuco, brasilwood, abeille).  Here in the US “abeille” is called “bee’s-wood.”

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Apparently Manikara bidentata, which comes from Guyana, isn't subject to CITES restrictions at this time. In addition to bee's wood, it's also known as bulletwood.

As pernambucco is of concern - though not yet restricted by CITES, conservation is given as a reason for making carbon fiber bows - how good is this wood for making bows, given that carbon fiber bows are expensive?

EDIT: In doing some searching, I've learned a few facts. While at least one Chinese maker is using Manikara in bows, apparently it's not too good. Brazilwood, noted as the usual second-tier wood under pernambuco, is actually wood from the same species of tree, just of lower quality, and so it isn't really an alternative wood. But another wood from Brazil, Ipe, shows promise.

Edited by Quadibloc
Avoiding double post, new information

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4 hours ago, Quadibloc said:

given that carbon fiber bows are expensive?

I think mine was around £70 new (about £120 now). So cheaper than a wooden bow, especially when you drop it (the usual way bows get broken). I picked the one I liked from half a dozen of the same model, and still find it OK.

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6 hours ago, Quadibloc said:

Apparently Manikara bidentata, which comes from Guyana, isn't subject to CITES restrictions at this time. In addition to bee's wood, it's also known as bulletwood.

As pernambucco is of concern - though not yet restricted by CITES, conservation is given as a reason for making carbon fiber bows - how good is this wood for making bows, given that carbon fiber bows are expensive?

EDIT: In doing some searching, I've learned a few facts. While at least one Chinese maker is using Manikara in bows, apparently it's not too good. Brazilwood, noted as the usual second-tier wood under pernambuco, is actually wood from the same species of tree, just of lower quality, and so it isn't really an alternative wood. But another wood from Brazil, Ipe, shows promise.

Abeille can make good bows ,often better than bad pernambuco  but not as good as good quality pernambuco. Brasilwood is a bit of a misnomer, everytime i see one described as brasilwood its obviously abeille/manilkara. Even low quality pernambuco looks different than abeille. Brasilwood  tends to be a term still used in the US in particular.

Abeille tends to have a bad reputation because it was used to make 100`s of thousands of mass produced cheap  bows often roughly made with little attention to the wood properties.It was often also poorly seasoned and many of these bows are now bent and twisted . They were usually sold by the dozen for little money by Mirecourt dealers and probably in  Markneukirchen as well. They were often usually free and included  with a purchased workshop  instrument.

The workshops did produce some better quality abeille bows though.

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the bow looks made from rosewood .

this is a commercial/trade bow 

low quality student bow 

looked like a Korean or Chinese factory made & stamped later (maybe not) because the picture is not clear to me 

if not , so possible to be made for french workshops 

but if you're a happy with that bow so , nice bow too :)  

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1 hour ago, mood2000 said:

the bow looks made from rosewood .

this is a commercial/trade bow 

low quality student bow 

looked like a Korean or Chinese factory made & stamped later (maybe not) because the picture is not clear to me 

 

mood2000, perhaps you haven't been here long enough to know that fiddlecollector is one of our most knowledgeable contributors on bows, with an exhaustive knowledge of French bows and of bow-making techniques. Although he remains anonymous here, we all have a lot of respect for him. His understanding of different species of bow-making wood is unparalleled.

It therefore seems a bit disrespectful to contradict his postings without even referring to them.

Of course he is right and you are wrong. When dod you ever see an Asian student bow with a half-mounted frog with a tapered pearl slide and a pinned adjuster with a second cut on the collar and of greater diameter than the stick?

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1 hour ago, martin swan said:

fiddlecollector is one of our most knowledgeable contributors on bows,

i know that my dear Martin , i'm one of his follower too , of course i respect him & appreciate him , but my previous post to the OP not to him 

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13 hours ago, mood2000 said:

i know that my dear Martin , i'm one of his follower too , of course i respect him & appreciate him , but my previous post to the OP not to him 

perhaps you should listen and read more and speak/write less. 

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24 minutes ago, Televet said:

perhaps you should listen and read more and speak/write less. 

my comment regarding to the topic means i'm answering the OP question 

So , if you have something to say about the bow would be better for you , rather to comment about my post

 

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I've done more searching on this topic due to another thread about bows.

Pernambucco used to be known as Caesalpinia echinata, but it is now reclassified as Caesalpinia Paubrasilia echinata.

The term "Brazilwood" is said in some places to refer to another species in the Caesalpinia genus, but apparently in fact it originally referred to inferior quality C. echinata wood, and is now used for wood of a number of different kinds.

There are other trees in the Caesalpinia genus, such as the "Leopard tree", but while they are in some cases decorative shade trees, I could find no information on which ones are useful for somewhat lesser-quality violin bows.

CITES has come through for Brazil, and the Pernambucco tree is now on the endangered species list.

Ipe apparently comes from Handroanthus impetiginosus, which has the popular name of pink ipe. Which suggests there might be a different kind of ipe used in violin bows instead, but it appears that this is the one used for bows, even if there are others.

That species is not currently endangered, indeed, it is plentiful - but it is currently being over-harvested in a fashion which will likely lead to it ending up endangered in time. However, its use in violin bows will probably not make much difference to that.

But there's a lot of contradictory information out there. One page on "Brazilwood" identifies Caesalpinia echinata as a Nicaraguan peachwood.

Edited by Quadibloc
Corrected typo

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Yes, I should have mentioned that the CITES designation for Pernambuco included that exemption, so violinists, since I did come across that, so violinists would know they have no reason to panic.

Besides ipe an abeille, snakewood and ironwood are traditional bow materials. I was looking at an article on wood properties in an old issue of the CAS Journal, and according to a table in that article, the properties of black walnut are very similar to those of pernambuco.

Yet in a search I've found no evidence that anyone ever tried using black walnut for a violin bow.

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