What Do You Do to Prevent Your Bow Jamming into the Violin Rib When Bowing E String At the Frog

[tchaikovsgay]

Hi. I realize some people (e.g. the following contestant) tilt the bow when they are approaching or starting at the frog on the E string. If I still use full bow hair I'll jam my bow into the violin rib. But I don't want to raise my right shoulder or twist my right wrist inwards; both seem not to be the smartest way... 

P.S. Like everyone else, I use full bow hair and with a slight tilt (bow hair towards face) for all strings

Thank you
 

[Bill Merkel]

One way would be to imagine to the right of the E string there's a B string that you don't want to touch.

[MarkBouquet]

I don't understand what you mean by "jam my bow into the violin rib." Do you mean that you strike the violin top in the c-bout area? If so there's a device called a "c-clip," made from soft black plastic, that clips onto the top in that area and is made to protect the top from the all too common dings they get there. But it's also useful as a training aid, because if you touch the rubbery material with your bow hair it acts like a brake on the bows movement, so you get instant feedback telling you that you're over too far.

[GeorgeH]

Practice not doing it.

[dpappas]

4 hours ago, GeorgeH said:

Practice not doing it.

This!

[tchaikovsgay]

12 hours ago, MarkBouquet clearsky said:

I don't understand what you mean by "jam my bow into the violin rib." Do you mean that you strike the violin top in the c-bout area? If so there's a device called a "c-clip," made from soft black plastic, that clips onto the top in that area and is made to protect the top from the all too common dings they get there. But it's also useful as a training aid, because if you touch the rubbery material with your bow hair it acts like a brake on the bows movement, so you get instant feedback telling you that you're over too far.

2

Yes, I meant striking the violin top in the c-bout area

[tchaikovsgay]

On 7/27/2018 at 7:25 AM, GeorgeH said:

Practice not doing it.

Thank you, I've just realized if I keep the tip of the ring finger ON the frog eye or near, the jamming can be prevented without any changes of shoulder level or bow tilt; full bow hair can still be used during the whole bow.

(Edit: this one is a wrong hypothesis)

[Stephen Fine]

Also, consider the bridge.  You could be having trouble if it's poorly cut.

What I often tell my students is to remember that the string isn't flat, it's round.  Sort of the same idea as Bill saying imagine you have a fifth string.  Just make sure that you're bowing close to the A-string instead of close to the C-bout. 

[John_London]

On 7/26/2018 at 4:30 PM, Bill Merkel said:

One way would be to imagine to the right of the E string there's a B string that you don't want to touch.

Seems the right diagnosis and cure, i.e. from the pictures the bow looks further from the A string than necessary, though it is hard to tell.

[Bill Merkel]

3 hours ago, John_London said:

Seems the right diagnosis and cure, i.e. from the pictures the bow looks further from the A string than necessary, though it is hard to tell.

I don't think it's him, cuz the guy in the picture isn't a beginner.

13 hours ago, tchaikovsgay said:

Thank you, I've just realized if I keep the tip of the ring finger ON the frog eye or near, the jamming can be prevented without any changes of shoulder level or bow tilt; full bow hair can still be used during the whole bow.

Bow hold shouldn't control the angle of the bow.  You should be able to change the angle without affecting the bow hold.  There's an appropriate angle for each string and each double stop, 7 angles total, but not cast in stone -- for example you might want to play the D very close to the A for the purposes of legato, or changing strings quickly, something.  Make up an excercise where you alternate open A open E very quickly w/ minimum effort using long bows

[John_London]

6 hours ago, Bill Merkel said:

I don't think it's him, cuz the guy in the picture isn't a beginner. 

Ah. It struck me that the head and hand position were surprisingly good for someone at an early stage. The fist image has alt data "Jan Mazur (Poland) - Stage 1 - International H. Wieniawski Violin Competition STEREO.mp4_snapshot_35.45_[2018.07.26_22.19.08].jpg"

I still have the violin which is scratched up because my bow was all over the place as teenager.

On 7/26/2018 at 4:17 PM, tchaikovsgay said:

P.S. Like everyone else, I use full bow hair and with a slight tilt (bow hair towards face) for other strings

I learned something there. I had no idea that everyone who tilts the bow for other strings, uses flat hair on the E. What is the reason for that?

[tchaikovsgay]

On 7/28/2018 at 1:23 PM, John_London said:

Ah. It struck me that the head and hand position were surprisingly good for someone at an early stage. The fist image has alt data "Jan Mazur (Poland) - Stage 1 - International H. Wieniawski Violin Competition STEREO.mp4_snapshot_35.45_[2018.07.26_22.19.08].jpg"

 I still have the violin which is scratched up because my bow was all over the place as teenager.

I learned something there. I had no idea that everyone who tilts the bow for other strings, uses flat hair on the E. What is the reason for that?

"P.S. Like everyone else, I use full bow hair and with a slight tilt (bow hair towards face) for other strings"

I mean full bow hair for all strings, but with a slight tilt (the tilt is the natural bow hold; the weight of bow allows full bow hair to be used even there's a slight tilt)

[tchaikovsgay]

On 7/28/2018 at 6:45 AM, Bill Merkel said:

I don't think it's him, cuz the guy in the picture isn't a beginner.

Bow hold shouldn't control the angle of the bow.  You should be able to change the angle without affecting the bow hold.  There's an appropriate angle for each string and each double stop, 7 angles total, but not cast in stone -- for example you might want to play the D very close to the A for the purposes of legato, or changing strings quickly, something.  Make up an excercise where you alternate open A open E very quickly w/ minimum effort using long bows

 

I see, I should be able to change the angle without affecting the bow hold; there's an appropriate angle for each string and each double stop, 7 angles total, but not cast in stone

[Rue]

I think you might want to just try to "do it" first. Once you "got it" then you can overanalyze it.

[tchaikovsgay]

On 7/26/2018 at 11:30 PM, Bill Merkel said:

One way would be to imagine to the right of the E string there's a B string that you don't want to touch.

Yes, I'll try today

[tchaikovsgay]

On 7/27/2018 at 9:34 PM, Stephen Fine said:

Also, consider the bridge.  You could be having trouble if it's poorly cut.

What I often tell my students is to remember that the string isn't flat, it's round.  Sort of the same idea as Bill saying imagine you have a fifth string.  Just make sure that you're bowing close to the A-string instead of close to the C-bout. 

I realize the E string side of the bridge is a lot lower than the G string side. I remember the luthier told me this prevents the strings from being too high from the fingerboard, which causes the string being hard to press. 

[tchaikovsgay]

 

On 7/28/2018 at 6:45 AM, Bill Merkel said:

I don't think it's him, cuz the guy in the picture isn't a beginner.

Bow hold shouldn't control the angle of the bow.  You should be able to change the angle without affecting the bow hold.  There's an appropriate angle for each string and each double stop, 7 angles total, but not cast in stone -- for example you might want to play the D very close to the A for the purposes of legato, or changing strings quickly, something.  Make up an excercise where you alternate open A open E very quickly w/ minimum effort using long bows

 

On 7/28/2018 at 1:23 PM, John_London said:

Ah. It struck me that the head and hand position were surprisingly good for someone at an early stage. The fist image has alt data "Jan Mazur (Poland) - Stage 1 - International H. Wieniawski Violin Competition STEREO.mp4_snapshot_35.45_[2018.07.26_22.19.08].jpg"

I still have the violin which is scratched up because my bow was all over the place as teenager.

I learned something there. I had no idea that everyone who tilts the bow for other strings, uses flat hair on the E. What is the reason for that?

Of course it's not me in the photos!! He's playing Ysaye Sonata No.3!!!!!!!!!! 

[tchaikovsgay]

25 minutes ago, Rue said:

I think you might want to just try to "do it" first. Once you "got it" then you can overanalyze it.

Yes, I'll do it

[Spelman]

It's common in the beginning to angle the bow too vertically when playing on the E string. It usually goes away with practice. You might be surprised that you can actually play the E string while not getting the bow hair into the C-bout.

If you want a practice aid, you can also put a piece of painters tape (get the low tack kind for delicate and antique surfaces and don't leave it on for any extended period of time) lightly across the ribs. You hit that and it will force you to keep your bow at an appropriate angle. A DIY version of what MBc was describing.

Or...just practice not dipping the frog so low when on the E string, lol.

Also, bow tilt should come from bending the wrist, not the fingers.

[JSB77]

Your elbow is too low. Lift it.