DR. S

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2 hours ago, Delabo said:

a scroll toady

that would be to go with the bow frog.......:blink:

Darned if I could find the scroll toady in Manfio's wonderful nomenclature of parts and features post in the other recent thread.

Just shows the experts on here don't know everything, huh. :ph34r:

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Dendro report is done and and a third expert has looked at the instrument.  None will sign off on their opinion, or allow their names to be used, because of legal reasons, but all who have looked at it, independently, came up with the same conclusion.  The wood is circa 1689,  Believed to have come from the same tree as used for 3 known Strads and 2 Guarneris.   While no one really believes it is a Stradavari (pattern is not right) or a Nicolo Amati (actually too powerful and made about 40-50 years too late), they do believe it is from a significant maker, and thus the resistance, in today's market and the importance of maintaining reputations, to documenting an attribute to it as to maker or value.  All scoffed at the idea that it is French.  It has had significant rework, restoration on it, possibly a non-original scroll, and it was speculated that is was a prototype or experimental model as it is 2-4 mm longer than the standard patterns of the day.   I think basically the only path to get an actual certificate will be to take it to London for a top tier appraisal when the owner is ready to put it on the market.  Meanwhile, I am enjoying the heck out of it. 

So nothing concrete, but a definite trend toward a specific answer. 

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33 minutes ago, DR. S said:

Dendro report is done and and a third expert has looked at the instrument.  None will sign off on their opinion, or allow their names to be used, because of legal reasons, but all who have looked at it, independently, came up with the same conclusion.  The wood is circa 1689,  Believed to have come from the same tree as used for 3 known Strads and 2 Guarneris.   While no one really believes it is a Stradavari (pattern is not right) or a Nicolo Amati (actually too powerful and made about 40-50 years too late), they do believe it is from a significant maker, and thus the resistance, in today's market and the importance of maintaining reputations, to documenting an attribute to it as to maker or value.  All scoffed at the idea that it is French.  It has had significant rework, restoration on it, possibly a non-original scroll, and it was speculated that is was a prototype or experimental model as it is 2-4 mm longer than the standard patterns of the day.   I think basically the only path to get an actual certificate will be to take it to London for a top tier appraisal when the owner is ready to put it on the market.  Meanwhile, I am enjoying the heck out of it. 

So nothing concrete, but a definite trend toward a specific answer. 

Annonymous dendro is a bit like a sex change;)

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1 hour ago, DR. S said:

  The wood is circa 1689,  Believed to have come from the same tree as used for 3 known Strads and 2 Guarneris.  

The same tree? Or the same forest?

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Not sure its like a sex change. But the whole point of any evaluation or expert analysis is based on the skills, knowledge, and reputation of the expert. If he/she doesn't sign off or allow his name to be used, then its worthless.

 

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1 hour ago, deans said:

Not sure its like a sex change. But the whole point of any evaluation or expert analysis is based on the skills, knowledge, and reputation of the expert. If he/she doesn't sign off or allow his name to be used, then its worthless.

 

Worthless for insurance purposes, but you need to understand the nature of this business, especially when dealing with potential values in 7 figures, and with all the history of fraud, even in recent years.   Reputation is everything.  95% percent certainty is not enough, and a violin at this level will most certainly need an appraisal at the top level of the industry.  No one below that is going to risk their reputation.   Their appraisals are not anonymous to the owner or me, but out of respect for their wishes is being held in confidence.  Also, to answer some of the speculation, since they were unwilling to issue a certificate or written report, fees were returned.  These were honest men.  We got the info that we need for now.  We are quite certain about what this is.  Until the owner decides to sell, he is perfectly happy as things are. 

But keep the snide remarks coming.   I really don't blame you, this is a one in a million event and skepticism is warranted.  I have been skeptical up to this point, but I am now convinced. And as I have pointed out, I have no skin in this game, doesn't change a thing about the quality of the instrument I am playing on.  Actually, this pretty much means at some point the instrument will be 'moved on' and sold, and it is definitely many many times out of reach for me to purchase, so in the end this news is a loss for me.   My personal instrument is actually a very good modern and it feel like a truck played next to this instrument. 

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1 hour ago, sospiri said:

The same tree? Or the same forest?

I did not talk to the person who did the dendrochronology, so I am not sure.  I understood it to be the same tree, but could be mistaken. Not sure how much that matters, I guess same tree would have more weight (and be cooler!) than same forest, but the dating and locale would still be valid. 

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On ‎7‎/‎13‎/‎2018 at 6:23 PM, DR. S said:

let me state that no matter what it turns out to be, it is a world class playing instrument.  Could be used by a major soloist - that good.  But curiosity has the best of us.  Here is are a few more photos.  To be honest, from the few Nicolo Amati instrument photos I have seen, it does not look like the same maker to me, but then I have very few data points.  We do believe the age is mid to late 1600s, definitely italian, very possibly Cremona - so says the appraiser we had look at it.

BillsViolin2.JPG

Bill'sViolin3.JPG

BillsViolin4.JPG

BillsViolin7.JPG

Are we still talking about this one?

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Same tree or same age and climate signature ...

It’s a pretty crucial difference. I can’t remember the last time we had a dendro done that didn’t feature a couple of Strads and del Gesus along with a whole slew of lesser Italians, French, Klozs etc ...

same tree match is a whole other story, and rare enough between violins made by the same maker ...

Dendro has to be understood primarily as a tool for determining the earliest possible date of manufacture. Nothing more ...

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On ‎7‎/‎13‎/‎2018 at 5:34 PM, DR. S said:

  From construction and other factors the appraiser was very certain the date was 16?9.  Comparing to the Nicola Amati labels I have been able to find (every one was different by the way).  I found no labels where his name was spelled Amatii, but always Amatus, however, other Amati's used Amatii in the latinized form.  It is my understanding that Nicolo Amati violins are exceedingly rare, so, while I am keeping my mind open, I realize the odds are against it.   But looking at the condition of the instrument, it has obviously been in the possesion of people who did not understand what they had.  I must say though that this instrument considerably better and more sonorous than any Amati that I have played, which if it is an Amati, points to Nicolo or Hieronyous II, his son.  The appraisers advice was to actually take it to Cremona for appraisal.

 

Not Nicolo Amati. I can't see it. Girolamo II maybe?

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On 7/12/2018 at 8:17 PM, uncle duke said:

So you're wondering if you might have a Hieronymus and Giuseppe collaboration?

Hmm, I wonder now about the percentage/odds of myself being right.    I rescind my in jest comment from last year.

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9 hours ago, DR. S said:

Worthless for insurance purposes, but you need to understand the nature of this business, especially when dealing with potential values in 7 figures, and with all the history of fraud, even in recent years.   Reputation is everything.  95% percent certainty is not enough, and a violin at this level will most certainly need an appraisal at the top level of the industry.  No one below that is going to risk their reputation.   Their appraisals are not anonymous to the owner or me, but out of respect for their wishes is being held in confidence.  Also, to answer some of the speculation, since they were unwilling to issue a certificate or written report, fees were returned.  These were honest men.  We got the info that we need for now.  We are quite certain about what this is.  Until the owner decides to sell, he is perfectly happy as things are. 

But keep the snide remarks coming.   I really don't blame you, this is a one in a million event and skepticism is warranted.  I have been skeptical up to this point, but I am now convinced. And as I have pointed out, I have no skin in this game, doesn't change a thing about the quality of the instrument I am playing on.  Actually, this pretty much means at some point the instrument will be 'moved on' and sold, and it is definitely many many times out of reach for me to purchase, so in the end this news is a loss for me.   My personal instrument is actually a very good modern and it feel like a truck played next to this instrument. 

I remember when this thread first came out, and I followed it with great interest. I am completely ignorant about violins, although God knows I’m trying to learn. Expert appraisers make mistakes. There’s nothing wrong with making a mistake. I don’t think any expert appraiser would want his name withheld for fear of people thinking he had made a mistake.

“You paid me the money, I’ll give you my best opinion. If im wrong, welp, I’m not Jesus. HE’S not wrong. Everybody else...is wrong on occasion.”

I’d like to see photos of the restored violin, and maybe a link to a file of it being played, if possible?

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On 7/15/2018 at 4:36 AM, DR. S said:

More photos

029-1.JPG

Old Violin  Cropped Lower Bout.jpg

Old Violin Cropped 2.jpg

We've seen this what's clearly french about 1800. The whole thing can't be taken seriously.

I'm getting a sort of "Alabama" feeling, who else, too?

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21 minutes ago, Blank face said:

We've seen this what's clearly french about 1800. The whole thing can't be taken seriously.

I'm getting a sort of "Alabama" feeling, who else, too?

Well, call me a romantic dreamer, but I'm hoping it's a Nicholas Lupot?

I know, silly idea, but I do like a happy ending.

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9 hours ago, DR. S said:

Jacobsaunders - Yes, that is the instrument.

He identified the corner blocks as French last year. Others agreed. Your information is second hand and somewhat muddled. So your friend is either confused in giving that information or you are in passing it on?

 

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