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DR. S
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Dendro is in work.   Having the instrument apart and closely looking it over centimeter by centimeter.  No, it was not antiqued.  The neck has been reset and re-angled, making it at least 200 years old.  Much of the wear could only have occurred over many many years and are not things one would have done to make it look old.  I won't argue about it being French or Italian, but if it is newer than early 18th century, I WILL be surprised. 

And I will reiterate, to me, this is all nothing more than and intellectual Exercise.  I can accept whatever the ultimate answer is.  I am playing on a world class playing instrument whether it was made by Nicolo Amati in 1669 or a factory Roth instrument made in 1950.  Not only in how it sounds, but how it plays and responds.   My Markneukirkin Theo Glaesel viola will never be worth more than 5-7K, but side by side its sound and sonority outshines every viola I have ever come In contact with, even using impartial judges not knowing which instrument was being played.  But unlike this violin, my viola does not quite have that feel of an old Italian. 

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4 hours ago, martin swan said:

I just reset and re-angled the neck on a Paul Bailly. Does that mean it's over 200 years old now ... I should double the price.

 

On 8/21/2018 at 5:20 PM, DR. S said:

The neck has been reset and re-angled, making it at least 200 years old.

Does this work for Markies too?  :huh:

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None of the 'big dogs' have agreed to sign off on an opinion (that pesky liability thing when they can't be close to 100% sure), but all I can say is that Mirecourt mid-19th century is not holding up to their observations and opinions.  Much older and further south seem to be a consensus so far, from what I am hearing.  Possibly something experimental - it is a few mms longer than standard.

Don't know how much the Dendro is costing.  None of my business - not asking.  I'm just as curious and fascinated as anyone.  I have no opinion on anything except how good it is as a playing instrument. 

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Generally the neck reset is due to modernization work, and indicates that the instruments was built before they integrated that feature into new instruments.  But since I am not an expert (though I have been told by quite a few experts of this fact), I will refrain in the future of making personal observations about anything but the playing qualities.  I'll let the experts sort it out. 

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2 hours ago, DR. S said:

Generally the neck reset is due to modernization work, and indicates that the instruments was built before they integrated that feature into new instruments.  But since I am not an expert (though I have been told by quite a few experts of this fact), I will refrain in the future of making personal observations about anything but the playing qualities.  I'll let the experts sort it out. 

I've got a Italian viola here that was dropped. It will have a neck graft and bushings when it is done. It was built in 1978.

I haven't ever seen a Erdesz without a neck graft.

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14 hours ago, germain said:

How much does a dendro analyses cost?

I was wondering if they have to take samples from multiple parts as well, since it seems like on an old instrument the probability of parts being replaced (maybe with even older parts!) would be higher. 

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A Dendro is usually done within a few hours, if Petrer is occupied maybe within some days, and the costs nothing you'd have to save your money for weeks (with average "western" incomeB)). So I'm more and more supposing that this here is some big drama with nothing behind than some hot air, for an unknown agenda. If there are "big dogs" involved I'd also like to have some names, otherwise the rule is better to keep quiet.

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25 minutes ago, glebert said:

I was wondering if they have to take samples from multiple parts as well, since it seems like on an old instrument the probability of parts being replaced (maybe with even older parts!) would be higher. 

Dendro is possible only at Conifer wood, i.e. the belly and nothing else.

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4 hours ago, Blank face said:

A Dendro is usually done within a few hours, if Petrer is occupied maybe within some days, and the costs nothing you'd have to save your money for weeks (with average "western" incomeB)). So I'm more and more supposing that this here is some big drama with nothing behind than some hot air, for an unknown agenda. If there are "big dogs" involved I'd also like to have some names, otherwise the rule is better to keep quiet.

Agreed.

4 hours ago, Blank face said:

Dendro is possible only at Conifer wood, i.e. the belly and nothing else.

The back looks like Mirecourt maple to me too. All the evidence suggests to me that Jacob was right all along and the "big dogs" are all bark and no bite except maybe their fee? OUCH!

I do like the lining and block work though. Another example of very nice 'French Cornerblockology'.

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6 hours ago, Blank face said:

A Dendro is usually done within a few hours, if Petrer is occupied maybe within some days, and the costs nothing you'd have to save your money for weeks (with average "western" incomeB)). So I'm more and more supposing that this here is some big drama with nothing behind than some hot air, for an unknown agenda. If there are "big dogs" involved I'd also like to have some names, otherwise the rule is better to keep quiet.

So are we talking $500 or $5000? 

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12 hours ago, duane88 said:

I've got a Italian viola here that was dropped. It will have a neck graft and bushings when it is done. It was built in 1978.

I haven't ever seen a Erdesz without a neck graft.

Yes, I believe majority of the 19th and 20th century instruments I have owned had a grafted scroll. Here are a few within reach, the viola is a modest German trade instrument from ~1930 and is on its second graft. It just seems burned into peoples mind that a graft means its 18th century or older.8-29-2.jpg.834fb1d51819ec797919194c55319fad.jpg

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8 hours ago, deans said:

Yes, I believe majority of the 19th and 20th century instruments I have owned had a grafted scroll. Here are a few within reach, the viola is a modest German trade instrument from ~1930 and is on its second graft. It just seems burned into peoples mind that a graft means its 18th century or older.8-29-2.jpg.834fb1d51819ec797919194c55319fad.jpg

Agreed. I have a 1924 with a grafted scroll and a few 19th century fiddles grafted as well

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15 hours ago, deans said:

Yes, I believe majority of the 19th and 20th century instruments I have owned had a grafted scroll. Here are a few within reach, the viola is a modest German trade instrument from ~1930 and is on its second graft. It just seems burned into peoples mind that a graft means its 18th century or older.

For me, the reason I believed that grafted scrolls were special, is because googling "what is a good violin", or something like that, brings up lots of results that tells you its an old violin if it has a grafted scroll. I did that for the first violin that I bought very cheaply at auction, and because it had a grafted scroll I took it to my local luthier who confirmed it was late 18th century and worth much more than I paid for it.

This first fortunate violin find aroused my interest in violins.

Out of interest, how much would a luthier charge to graft a scroll toady ?

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