Opinions on this label

[DR. S]

So the 'major' makers used hardwood (maple) for the linings?  I will see what I can find out.

 

[Blank face]

2 hours ago, jacobsaunders said:

Let him spend his money if it makes him happier

In this case the money spend on a dendrochronological report could save exactly the difference in price between a 17th century Cremonese and a 19th century damaged Mirecourt (what's quite significant), so supposed to make one slightly more happy. Sometimes there's no other way to convince believers than a knock with a log.

I guess that Martin's remark about hardwood linings is aiming at the french production of a defined period only, otherwise there are lots of fine fiddles lined up with pine/spruce.

[Violadamore]

6 hours ago, DR. S said:

Dendro?  Some kind of wood analysis?

http://www.violin-dendrochronology.com/

You can contact Peter by PM.  He's a very active member (Ratcliffiddles) here. 

[DR. S]

5 hours ago, Blank face said:

In this case the money spend on a dendrochronological report could save exactly the difference in price between a 17th century Cremonese and a 19th century damaged Mirecourt (what's quite significant), so supposed to make one slightly more happy. Sometimes there's no other way to convince believers than a knock with a log.

I guess that Martin's remark about hardwood linings is aiming at the french production of a defined period only, otherwise there are lots of fine fiddles lined up with pine/spruce.

Believer?   What does belief have to do about this?  I am here soliciting opinion, all of which I am taking seriously.  I am also putting out other opinions that I have received from other reputable sources.  I am trying to deal in facts, and where that is not attainable, then the best founded theory.   Not my violin and not my money. 

I appreciate the comments and find the information valuable.  But I am not some hick that has "grandpa's Strad' out of the attic (I've seen a bunch of those and had to break the news to the poor souls).  I am a conservatory trained instrumentalist and have played on a lot of fine instruments.  This instrument, may well turn out just to be a very good playing, valueless instrument - I have a viola like that.  But the initial expert report definitely dictated further investigation.  This is one of those instruments that when you play it, people ask what it is, and when someone plays it, they do not want to give it back.  It has that nuance that you hear about with the finest instruments and the power to fill a hall and soar over and orchestra.   I've been playing it for over a year, as I said, and finding out it is not of great value is perfect for me, I'll be able to buy it, I really do not want to give it up.  But the owner is a friend and if it is of great value, I am not going to try to hide it. 

[Blank face]

I was very generally speaking, in a wider context and regarding to an older discussion, so no reason to get excited. The log means the piece of wood the belly was once made of, nothing what will hurt physically.

In this particular case it might be more economical to order a mail report than to travel from Texas to Cremona, won't it (though this can be educational)?

[martin swan]

13 hours ago, DR. S said:

So the 'major' makers used hardwood (maple) for the linings?  I will see what I can find out.

 

Almost never maple

except some Mirecourt violins, but later than this

I think the Amati family used willow, but I could be wrong

 

[jacobsaunders]

6 hours ago, DR. S said:

 I am not some hick that has "grandpa's Strad' out of the attic 

Oh, a Strad, never thought of that

[ClefLover]

Could the lining by slab cut willow, in which the an optimal quarter cut wouldn’t be as necessary as for spruce?

[ClefLover]

Just now, ClefLover said:

Could the lining by slab cut willow, in which the an optimal quarter cut wouldn’t be as necessary as for spruce?

That meant to say “be,” not “by”

[Rue]

Lol...you can go back in and edit your typos. No need for a 2nd post - not like a text. 

[ClefLover]

Just now, Rue said:

Lol...you can go back in and edit your typos. No need for a 2nd post - not like a text. 

Thanks!

[ClefLover]

I will add that the very narrow view of the lining looks quarter cut spruce, but wouldn’t a slab cut willow appear similar with indistinguable density?

[DR. S]

More photos

[Delabo]

Spruce linings and blocks, not willow.

The linings look to be let into the blocks.

Interesting.

[Blank face]

Not morticed, but the tips glued over the blocks.

For the form longer in the C bouts and subsequently the construction method ompare here:

 

 

[Delabo]

6 minutes ago, Blank face said:

Not morticed, but the tips glued over the blocks.

For the form longer in the C bouts and subsequently the construction method ompare here:

 

 

Yep, agreed, looking at an enlarged picture the linings tips are not let into the blocks, but cut thin and then glued over them.

Are these French corner blocks ?

[jacobsaunders]

17 minutes ago, Delabo said:

 

Are these French corner blocks ?

yes

[Delabo]

5 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

yes

So this violin is late 19th century French, the ribs built on the back around nicely formed corner blocks  to make the outside rib corners look vaguely  Cremonese ?

Can this type of construction be found on earlier French violins ?

[nathan slobodkin]

Just discovered how to zoom in on photos. Very helpful!

Dr.S ; The unusual shape of the upper eyes of the FFs look like these vulnerable points got broken and were "fixed" by reshaping them.  I would certainly accept the opinion of real experts here who say French. It certainly has no characteristics of Italian construction of any age. The expert you took it to may have his own reasons for not wanting to give you bad news. The suggestion to take it to Cremona is probably made in jest as with the exception of one fellow who posts here and may yet chime in with an opinion there are not to many qualified expert appraisers in Cremona compared to several other cities around the globe.

[Delabo]

Just as a matter of interest, I wondered for a while if this was a composite because of the way the purfling bee sting knife cuts run out to the ends on the back, but are not the same on the front.   Looking more closely, the varnish appears to be the same on both sides.   Also, the purfling is also probably the same on both sides (hard to see clearly) .  So my latest theory is that the workman let his purfling knife run out to the ends on the front as well, but because spruce is much softer, the knife marks have now worn away.  Does this sound right ?

[DR. S]

4 hours ago, nathan slobodkin said:

Just discovered how to zoom in on photos. Very helpful!

Dr.S ; The unusual shape of the upper eyes of the FFs look like these vulnerable points got broken and were "fixed" by reshaping them.  I would certainly accept the opinion of real experts here who say French. It certainly has no characteristics of Italian construction of any age. The expert you took it to may have his own reasons for not wanting to give you bad news. The suggestion to take it to Cremona is probably made in jest as with the exception of one fellow who posts here and may yet chime in with an opinion there are not to many qualified expert appraisers in Cremona compared to several other cities around the globe.

There was no bad news to give.  It was sent without any specific expectations.

[DR. S]

 I am always puzzled why someone would make such a marvelous instrument and try to pass it off as something else.

[deans]

1 hour ago, DR. S said:

 I am always puzzled why someone would make such a marvelous instrument and try to pass it off as something else.

Good chance the maker didnt care and passed it off to a distributor who decided what label it would have. Perhaps he never even heard its sound.

But Im not sure exactly how these french shops worked. Martin might be able to give a picture of what an instrument like this early life would have looked like

[BassClef]

Love these types of threads. Thank you to the participants.

[ClefLover]

7 hours ago, Blank face said:

Not morticed, but the tips glued over the blocks.

For the form longer in the C bouts and subsequently the construction method ompare here:

 

 

Wait... I’m sure my eyes are deceiving me, but doesn’t the C bout lining look let into the cornerblock?