chungviolins

'Graduation day ' in Strad, July issue

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Hello

Strad, July issue, there is an article about graduation of plates by scratching.

Can any one explain this??

Koo Young Chung

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26 minutes ago, chungviolins said:

Hello

Strad, July issue, there is an article about graduation of plates by scratching.

Can any one explain this??

Koo Young Chung

Pertinent quotes from the article? (I don't subscribe).

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43 minutes ago, chungviolins said:

Pics here, hope you can read.

Sort of, in a pinch. ;)

Who wrote the article, and what sort of track record do they have?

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1 hour ago, David Burgess said:

Sort of, in a pinch. ;)

Who wrote the article, and what sort of track record do they have?

here's his website, hope you can read .... swedish :D nah, there's an englisg section as wel

http://www.westerlunds.se/

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No answer so far, I think the lack of interest in this article is already an eloquent answer....;)

I'm always upset when a reputable magazine like The Strad publishes (and pays) this kind of articles that do not say anything precise and describe methods that are at least questionable or even almost "esoteric" : I think it should be the author of the article to pay for advertising without saying anything useful.

However, the fundamental error of this method is that if you scratch the plates with nails they are not happy,  I prefer to gently tickle them and thin the thickness until it stops laughing:D

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9 hours ago, Davide Sora said:
 
 
However, the fundamental error of this method is that if you scratch the plates with nails they are not happy,  I prefer to gently tickle them and thin the thickness until it stops laughing:D

When a violin stops laughing when tickled, it might be deceased... :o

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On 7/12/2018 at 1:46 PM, chungviolins said:

Can any one explain this??

I was drawn to it like a moth to a flame.

Unfortunately, it defeated me also, but my IQ is <70.

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3 hours ago, David Beard said:

Strad is not a peer reviewed scholarly journal.  Just a magazine aiming to sell.

 
Yes, but I know that John Dilworth is The Strad's consultant for lutherie technical articles (at least for Trade Secrets articles)
Probably the themes dealt with like in this article is considered as they make more attraction on the musicians who like to imagine the luthier in a romantic way, as a psychic dealing with alchemy and magic shop secrets.
Like the vision of Del Gesù alcoholic that makes violins in the jail, or Paganini who sold the soul to the devil....:rolleyes:
 

Not stuff for real makers.

 

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Westerlund’s instruments sound pretty good. I sat and heard him talk about his wooly methods for a couple hours a few summers ago. 

The lack of measurable goals was quietly infuriating, yeah, but that’s a personality thing. The reveal of the plate reaching its homogenous pitch when the effhole wings were fluted was satisfying, and the simple idea that materials of different  properties and densities could be judged for their ideal arch height by waiting for them to come to pitch with the other parts as height is removed...

i liked the spirit and obvious expertise Peter had in his own system.

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Unless you are holding along the nodal lines, you don't hear a discernable sound.

All you hear is a "thud", it is a white noise basically, short duration.

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On 7/14/2018 at 5:03 AM, Davide Sora said:
 

No answer so far, I think the lack of interest in this article is already an eloquent answer....;)

 

I'm always upset when a reputable magazine like The Strad publishes (and pays) this kind of articles that do not say anything precise and describe methods that are at least questionable or even almost "esoteric" : I think it should be the author of the article to pay for advertising without saying anything useful.

 
However, the fundamental error of this method is that if you scratch the plates with nails they are not happy,  I prefer to gently tickle them and thin the thickness until it stops laughing:D

No lack of interest from me!

I found it very interesting even though I didn't understand it 100%; I got the general idea and found his plate tuning method fascinating. The man has made over 350 instruments and any insight into the working methods of any such luthier is always valuable. If only Strad could have left a similar record. 

Why do you describe his methods as 'questionable'? 

Glenn

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1 hour ago, GlennYorkPA said:

No lack of interest from me!

I found it very interesting even though I didn't understand it 100%; I got the general idea and found his plate tuning method fascinating. The man has made over 350 instruments and any insight into the working methods of any such luthier is always valuable. If only Strad could have left a similar record. 

Why do you describe his methods as 'questionable'? 

Glenn

 

Because it does not explain what is the acoustic principle that should support this method.

Of course I have nothing against this luthier and I am sure his violins work very well (350 instruments, that's a lot!), but he should explain to me why a plate should give the same "scratch" tone all over and why his method should work better than other empirical methods of other violin makers whose violins sound equally well, given that I have never heard of violin makers who say that their violins do not work well  (including me:)).
 
But when he suggests that the archings of Stradivari were made in this way (he has ever "scratched" one of these to support his theory? It would be a good starting point but I guess and I hope not), or when he claims that "many people go wrong and choose the lower tone instead of the higher" (after scratching the wood. I wonder who all these luthiers are....) and many other unsupported statements along the article, I beg to say that these are at least questionable opinions.
 
Anyway, my annoyance was against the way of writing these articles, not against the violinmaker personal method per se, I have heard even more questionable and mysterious methods along the way.....:rolleyes:


 

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Instead of scratching my head I should scratch my plates? 

I think publishing controversial ideas is not necessarily bad. However it might be a good idea to have 2 articles in that case, one for the pro position, one for the contra position. 

Need to read it if I can get hold of the article. 

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2 hours ago, Davide Sora said:
 

Because it does not explain what is the acoustic principle that should support this method.

Of course I have nothing against this luthier and I am sure his violins work very well (350 instruments, that's a lot!), but he should explain to me why a plate should give the same "scratch" tone all over and why his method should work better than other empirical methods of other violin makers whose violins sound equally well, given that I have never heard of violin makers who say that their violins do not work well  (including me:)).
 
But when he suggests that the archings of Stradivari were made in this way (he has ever "scratched" one of these to support his theory? It would be a good starting point but I guess and I hope not), or when he claims that "many people go wrong and choose the lower tone instead of the higher" (after scratching the wood. I wonder who all these luthiers are....) and many other unsupported statements along the article, I beg to say that these are at least questionable opinions.
 
Anyway, my annoyance was against the way of writing these articles, not against the violinmaker personal method per se, I have heard even more questionable and mysterious methods along the way.....:rolleyes:


 

I can't find anywhere in the original where it states that Stradivari tuned his plates in this way. In the second paragraph, he clearly states that this is his 'theory'.

On the subject of underlying principles. I have no idea of the science that goes on when I heat an egg to make an omelette. All I know is that it works. Just because we don't understand underlying principles is no reason to remain silent about our empirical observations. 

You, and others, seem to be suggesting that the article should not have been published because it is not learned or scholarly and because the Strad is a for profit publication. I think both assertions are regrettable. Free speech is something we still value and if the method described doesn't work or has limited value, it would be fascinating to hear the debate but these attempts to suppress or diminish the experience of Mr Westerlund are unworthy - and I say that as one who never heard of the gentleman until his article was published recently.

In his last para, he states "Of course, this description gives only the bare bones of this method of arching and graduation, and perhaps generates a lot of questions in people's minds. It is, of course, far better to watch a luthier demonstrate his method in person, but I hope this summary gives a good idea of the principles behind this method". BRAVO. 

Glenn

 

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31 minutes ago, GlennYorkPA said:

I can't find anywhere in the original where it states that Stradivari tuned his plates in this way. In the second paragraph, he clearly states that this is his 'theory'.

 

Everything is just theory when it comes to ancient things that can not be fixed with certainty, but it seems to me that it is clearly stated here :

1983973153_Stradarticleritaglio.jpg.511a0085bb653e342e73a7bcbecb5ee9.jpg

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52 minutes ago, GlennYorkPA said:

On the subject of underlying principles. I have no idea of the science that goes on when I heat an egg to make an omelette. All I know is that it works. Just because we don't understand underlying principles is no reason to remain silent about our empirical observations. 

You, and others, seem to be suggesting that the article should not have been published because it is not learned or scholarly and because the Strad is a for profit publication. I think both assertions are regrettable. Free speech is something we still value and if the method described doesn't work or has limited value, it would be fascinating to hear the debate but these attempts to suppress or diminish the experience of Mr Westerlund are unworthy - and I say that as one who never heard of the gentleman until his article was published recently.

In his last para, he states "Of course, this description gives only the bare bones of this method of arching and graduation, and perhaps generates a lot of questions in people's minds. It is, of course, far better to watch a luthier demonstrate his method in person, but I hope this summary gives a good idea of the principles behind this method". BRAVO. 

Glenn

 

It was absolutely not my intention to stop the discussion on this methodology of work, I have only expressed my opinion and my disappointment for the scant information offered for a possible technical discussion from the point of view of a violinmaker interested in discussing based on more concrete information with technical datail shared more openly.

Regarding the closing sentence of the article that you report, what I can say is that what is written in the article is not enough to get an idea of the principles behind this method.

Just my questionable opinion, I invite others to start a discussion if they think it's worth it, but it does not seem there is the queue.

 

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