lpr5184

Brian Lisus' Organic Primer...

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Yup, The dried filter paper burns like a. fuse, the slightest spark sets it off, pretty cool.    As for the smell , it,s there, but not exactly the worst , the crap from people being by far more repulsive .... moreover the oder fades to nothing when compleatly dry.unlike human dung , reported  to stay active for hundreds if not thousands of years....apparently not all feces are the same..... 

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2 hours ago, James M. Jones said:

    As for the smell , it,s there, but not exactly the worst , the crap from people being by far more repulsive .... moreover the oder fades to nothing when compleatly dry.unlike human dung , reported  to stay active for hundreds if not thousands of years....apparently not all feces are the same..... 

It's true... vegetarians' crap don't stink.......:ph34r:

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On 7/11/2018 at 10:06 PM, uncle duke said:

So like if you were to go south of town to like n. 1000 rd / 458 area,  how would you go about asking an owner for possible equine services?

"Equine services"...haha. I don't know where you are talking about...are those the stables? Someone at my church has horses at their house, so I can figure that part out without explaining to a stranger about this gross project. Again. 

Yes, I actually did knock on a guy's door, a total stranger, and ask him about rabbit urine. He kept a lot of rabbits outside for meat and we would drive by there and be like, "ohhh, you should ask him." "No, you ask", and etc. Finally I did, of course. It was comical, but we tried to come to an agreement. Unfortunately I didn't have any way to collect the urine that anyone could think of. You can put a screen and collection receptacle under the wood shavings but liquid doesn't get through. A horse, you can just hang out for the afternoon and throw a bucket under him, much easier!

Anyone know a good way to collect rabbit pee? Other than just holding the rabbit all day every day for a year and always being ready to receive that golden gift? I doubt it's ever easy to get a good volume of rabbit urine. I wish Roger Hargrave could explain that little how-to. But obviously horse pee works great, so.

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36 minutes ago, lpr5184 said:

I bought one gallon of rabbit urine from this company...https://www.wildlifecontrolsupplies.com/animal/NWSRABU.html

If I remember correctly Roger mentioned letting the urine ferment for some time before using...or something along those lines.

It's been awhile since I read the thread.

 

The urea content of urine is biologically active and will decompose into ammonia.  At some point the fermentation process will stop.  Urine tends to be slightly acidic while urea and ammonia are basic.  Ammonia being more basic than urea.  A guess is that pH will stabilize at a higher pH at the completion of fermentation than when the urine is fresh and will have a greater ammonia concentration.  No idea of the timeline for all this to occur.  

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8 hours ago, not telling said:

 I doubt it's ever easy to get a good volume of rabbit urine. I wish Roger Hargrave could explain that little how-to. But obviously horse pee works great, so.

My only suggestion is to replace the rabbit's water with beer. Maybe Roger's German beer is more efficacious in this respect. When I was a kid I had a rabbit that was crazy for rum and coke; it would hop up on my lap and try and drink it from my glass.

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8 hours ago, not telling said:

Anyone know a good way to collect rabbit pee? Other than just holding the rabbit all day every day for a year and always being ready to receive that golden gift? I doubt it's ever easy to get a good volume of rabbit urine.

Easy. Get yourself a rabbit press. :lol:

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On ‎7‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 6:24 PM, Jim Bress said:

I think the Rubio (horse pee and poop) is both a stain (initial color change) and a chemical reaction (increased color change over a short period of time).  I do not think it is a strong oxidizer. 

 

On ‎7‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 7:48 PM, lpr5184 said:

Might be my laptop screen but I don't see any yellow color in Mike's sauce. Maybe it has a short shelf life. Koen's primer had a 6 month shelf life if I'm not mistaken.

Brian's sauce definitely has yellow so his ingredients may be very different from the Roubo stain. If you read through his web page  you will find that Brian was a collector of many different organic dye stuffs.

 

On ‎7‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 8:30 PM, James M. Jones said:

That’s one , another Rubio red is the same with the addition of straw to line the bottom of the first basket and wood ash laid over the top of the manure before  wetting , both I assume would trigger nitrogen to bond with potassium from the ash and straw alike creating a saltpeter. 

 

On ‎7‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 2:23 AM, David Burgess said:

Yes, "dung liquor" has been a major source of the saltpeter (potassium nitrate) used in gunpowder, the oxidizer used to supply the oxygen for the quick combustion reaction.

I did hear back from Brian and he gave me the recipe in a nutshell but he has to review his notes when he has time in order to share the entire procedure.

He did say that after the initial preparation of the manure/urine solution he adds a yellow organic color at the end. And to me this explains why his primer looks more yellow than Mike's. In his application videos it states that his primer is best utilized when made fresh.

 

Here's a question...Since the manure/urine and straw/woodash procedure is basically making saltpeter/Potassium Nitrate (KNO3.)....and then adding a coloring agent.

Why not skip the gross part and just buy Potassium Nitrate and then add some coloring agent?

After experimenting some years back with OLD WOOD's primer I believed that it contained an oxidizer and some sort of colored dye. I just didn't care for the orange color.

However OW primer does color the wood quickly.

So I'm going to experiment a little further into this question this summer. And when Brian has the time to explain his procedure I'll try duplicating the old French recipe.

 

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16 minutes ago, lpr5184 said:

 

 

 

I did hear back from Brian and he gave me the recipe in a nutshell but he has to review his notes when he has time in order to share the entire procedure.

He did say that after the initial preparation of the manure/urine solution he adds a yellow organic color at the end. And to me this explains why his primer looks more yellow than Mike's. In his application videos it states that his primer is best utilized when made fresh.

 

Here's a question...Since the manure/urine and straw/woodash procedure is basically making saltpeter/Potassium Nitrate (KNO3.)....and then adding a coloring agent.

Why not skip the gross part and just by Potassium Nitrate and then add some coloring agent?

After experimenting with OLD WOOD's primer I believe that it contains an oxidizer and some sort of colored dye. I just didn't care for the orange color.

However OW primer does color the wood quickly.

So I'm going to experiment a little further into this question this summer. And when Brian has the time to explain his procedure I'll try duplicating the old French recipe.

 

I think it's a matter the strength of the oxidizing agent and potential risk of burning the grains or possibly weakening the structure of the wood if you do too much.  On the same wood samples I showed the Roubo stain I applied a 4% sodium nitrite solution.  I got nearly the same color with a slight bit more red than brown compared to the adjacent Roubo stain.  The color difference is neither good or bad, just depends where you're going with your varnish.  However, the application is different.  With the SN I have to be careful how long I let the solution sit on the wood before blotting with a rag.  If I let too much SN soak in, especially on the end grain, the color turns gray.  The Roubo stain is both a dye and an oxidizer (I think), so not so application sensitive and you can reverse some of the color with a damp rag.  That's my experience with both.  Your mileage may vary.

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1 hour ago, Marijan said:

You were drinking rum as a kid :o ?

Marijan, meet Bill Yacey. That almost certainly wasn't a typo.

David, I don't think a one-time-use rabbit press would be economical. And don't their little screams bother you?

E...in the Michetschläger book she is specific in mentioning that chemical saltpeter is different from this process as far as the effect and how controllable it is. Also, the process protects the wood. It's just a great system. I think this is obvious from seeing what Mike's primer does. But I wondered the same, and Jackson Maberry likes it. Worth trying? Post results!!

E, I am also curious about how you liked the Magister products. I played with them before anyone thought of an end to the supply, and was impressed, but not everyone was. Plus I was predisposed to loving that process because of my husband using the product successfully. I think even if spraying chemical oxidizers had the same effect, I would think that what Koen Padding did was superior.

 

 

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2 minutes ago, not telling said:

Marijan, meet Bill Yacey. That almost certainly wasn't a typo.

David, I don't think a one-time-use rabbit press would be economical. And don't their little screams bother you?

Sounds like you have already experimented with the rabbit press. Do y'all not have ear plugs out there yet in the wild west? :D

But what makes you think the rabbit press is one-time use? Skill, practice, and a steady hand are required, as with most things relating to violinmaking. ;)

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7 minutes ago, not telling said:

E...in the Michetschläger book she is specific in mentioning that chemical saltpeter is different from this process as far as the effect and how controllable it is. Also, the process protects the wood. It's just a great system. I think this is obvious from seeing what Mike's primer does. But I wondered the same, and Jackson Maberry likes it. Worth trying? Post results!!

E, I am also curious about how you liked the Magister products. I played with them before anyone thought of an end to the supply, and was impressed, but not everyone was. Plus I was predisposed to loving that process because of my husband using the product successfully. I think even if spraying chemical oxidizers had the same effect, I would think that what Koen Padding did was superior.

What Michetschläger  said does make sense and she could be right. There is so much chemistry that can come into play.

I have experimented only with sodium nitrite and potassium dichromate. I will not bother with dichromate again because it turns green over time. SN I had pretty good luck with.

I did not have a chance to use Koen's primer and I am in no way implying that Koen's primer contained saltpeter.  I intended to place an order with Bill Scott right before Koen's passing.

I was a big fan of Magister varnishes...oodles of open time..

 

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42 minutes ago, lpr5184 said:

What Michetschläger  said does make sense and she could be right. There is so much chemistry that can come into play.

I have experimented only with sodium nitrite and potassium dichromate. I will not bother with dichromate again because it turns green over time. SN I had pretty good luck with.

Combine a green (ground) with a red (varnish), and what do you get?

Not that I am in any way advocating the use of dichromate (and I don't happen to use it, or any other chemical oxidizers in my own varnishing process), but rather posing a question about whether pleasing results at individual stages in the varnishing process have much to do with the final outcome. In my own process, there are one or three points along the line where things are looking simply nightmarish.

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1 hour ago, not telling said:

E...in the Michetschläger book she is specific in mentioning that chemical saltpeter is different from this process as far as the effect and how controllable it is. Also, the process protects the wood.

....and why protect the wood? we must trust his words and that's it? no, thanks<_<

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Wood worm, mold, rot, and other anti microbial activity/protection. Supposed. I don't know for sure, just what I read... that was historically what woodworkers used it for. I would be interested in what you believe about these preparations and why you don't subscribe to the claims made by proponents.

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I am just bored and tired of statements spanned in the air and not disclosed for commercial purposes.I'm not talking about you, of course, you're just reporting and you're not at fault.I am not inclined to put on my violins substances I do not know, even if someone assures me that they are harmless, but then does not tell me what they are.The fact that Brian has stopped offering his primer due to a lack of interest says a lot, evidently people prefer to use something more known (and much less expensive) that gives more or less the same results as for example the widely used nitrite or nitrate of sodium or potassium. At least one knows what he uses and might investigate the effects on the wood by asking a chemist, being able to specify the exact substance. If I were able to do this, I would probably buy Brian's primer but in the absence of clarity I refuse to do so.

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Davide,

Please give Brian a chance to respond to this thread when he has time.

In the past he has been very upfont and open regarding information of his varnishing practices. I don't think he is holding back any information.

I think the lack of interest is mostly due to the use of manure and urine in the ingredients.  Most I think just don't want to put that on their fiddles.

I  agree with you about applying any substance when the ingredients can not be positively identified which is one of the questions I asked in the first post of this thread.

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11 hours ago, Marijan said:

You were drinking rum as a kid :o ?

Well, when I was seventeen or eighteen. I was only allowed to drink beer and wine before that.

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On 7/11/2018 at 9:12 PM, lpr5184 said:

Brian responded to my email..................hopefully we will get the information straight from the horses mouth.

A nice contrast to where much of this thread originates.  :ph34r::lol:

While I have a considerable supply of mixed barnyard effluent available, decorating my violins with decoctions of it hadn't occurred to me.  I gain so much inspiration on MN. ^_^

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38 minutes ago, lpr5184 said:

Surely you didn't miss Roger's Bass thread's first mention of using the ingredients....When he shared this recipe here I was surprised as well.

Nope, I commented on it there too, but, IIRC, that was limited to rabbit exhaust, while here we've stomped through the stable and the feedlot as well.  Good thing I have a fine selection of rubber boots.  :lol:

BTW, please don't take my comments as a criticism of Brian's product.  I'm sure it's wonderful stuff.  :)

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