lpr5184

Brian Lisus' Organic Primer...

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Anyone tried Brian's primer?

Photo's or comments of your experience with it would be appreciated.

How does it compare to Koen's primer, in color?

 Are there any oxidizers in it?

 

Thanks

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46 minutes ago, lpr5184 said:

Anyone tried Brian's primer?

Photo's or comments of your experience with it would be appreciated.

How does it compare to Koen's primer, in color?

 Are there any oxidizers in it?

 

Thanks

I didn't know that he used an organic primer. I'm his video he uses Magister I think. 

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I talked with Brian Lisus a few months ago. He said at that time that manufacturing the primer is such a pita that he was taking a break from doing it commercially. He told me the process and there are no chemical oxidizers other than what happens to the organic products over time. The process is gross and lengthy. It's as close to Koen Padding's primer as any of his friends have found. He would tell you everything too; I am not special. So call him. 

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if I had to guess based on the description, his stain may be based on horse urine /dung. When talking to Roger durning the double bass thread I brought up the recipe below from the 18th century French cabinetmaker André Roubo. Roubo gives a recipe for staining wood derived from horse dung and urine l'art du Menuisier. 

If one believes that classical instruments were treated with this type of stain -- you can't get any more authentic than Roubo. There was also a discussion in the bass book on how this method was used by Aubert to stain bridges p 105. I put the Roubo recipe in the book as well.  [it is no wonder no one does this commercially - If Brian makes it I would buy it] ... alternatively  you could hang your violin in a chicken coop for a few weeks and see what happens!

Roubo recipe. 
"Before finishing the dyeing of wood, I believe I ought to give a least-costly method of dyeing white wood red [he says red but it is really dirty yellow], which is done in the following manner: You take some horse dung, which you put in a bucket of which the bottom is pierced with many holes, and you place it above another bucket, into which falls the water from the dung, as it gradually rots. When it does not rot fast enough, you water it from time to time with some horse urine, which helps a lot and at the same time gives a red water, which not only stains the surface of the wood, but penetrates the interior 3 to 4 lines deep. In staining the wood with this dye, one must take care that all the pieces be of the same species, and about equal in density if one wishes that they be of equal colour throughout. This observation is general for all water-based stains, which have no palpable thickness or even appearance [they leave no residue or any evident change in appearance], which requires the cabinetmaker to make a choice of wood of equal colour and a density as I mentioned before.” 

 

 

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Chris,  I do remember the discussion in Roger's thread and I bought the Roubo book that contains the recipe. It is available from,  https://lostartpress.com/.

I have a gallon of Rabbit urine I bought back then. I also have an umlimited supply of fresh horse manure.

Brian looks like he really has it down though and his primer kit looks easy to use.

Hope he is still offering it.

Appreciate the info!

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i suspect you are right - Brian, seems like a knowledgeable guy, the process in his application video makes it look so easy! His craftsmanship is impeccable.

I love the lost art press books, lots of great stuff

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On my list to do anyway when this thread popped up. 1 year old Rubio stain (compliments of Iron Mike) on well sun tanned wood after two hours in UV box. Chatoyance on maple better with the stain than without. 

 

72A31A8F-072E-4A18-91B0-2DB64B9A72BE.thumb.jpeg.e621f80e59d30ac774b8ab249b209f80.jpeg

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5 minutes ago, not telling said:

Pretty. How long was the poo juice percolating? And then the bottle sat on your shelf for one year?

It’s a clear brown liquid. Yup, sat on my shelf for a year. I assume it was less than a year old when it was given to me.  I don’t think the jar has any active chemical reaction going on, but I’m not a chemist. Shelf life seems pretty good. Mike Jones will have to comment on how long it takes to make. 

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4 minutes ago, Bill Yacey said:

Some stuff is so bad fresh, it can only get better with age.

If you’re referring to the smell I’m “blessed” with the lack of olfactory function. I’ve been assured that the scent disappears when it dries. 

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Brian responded to my email....basically he said he has not offered/made the primer in over a year due to a lack of interest.

He did say that his primer is a little different than Koen's primer.

His being more of a stain. (Personally I'm glad to hear this)

I sent him the link to this thread so hopefully we will get the information straight from the horses mouth.

 

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I think the Rubio (horse pee and poop) is both a stain (initial color change) and a chemical reaction (increased color change over a short period of time).  I do not think it is a strong oxidizer.  I would like to experiment with it enough to find the line where too much is applied, but my supply is limited.  I would definitely be a potential customer of Brian's sauce. 

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17 minutes ago, Jim Bress said:

I think the Rubio (horse pee and poop) is both a stain (initial color change) and a chemical reaction (increased color change over a short period of time).  I do not think it is a strong oxidizer.  I would like to experiment with it enough to find the line where too much is applied, but my supply is limited.  I would definitely be a potential customer of Brian's sauce. 

After watching the application videos...I think Brian has marketed a great product but perhaps he doesn't have the time to devote to selling it commercially.

I also asked him if he could share the recipe if it was not trademarked.

I do hope he will respond in this thread. I learned a good many things from his past varnish threads here.

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3 hours ago, Jim Bress said:

On my list to do anyway when this thread popped up. 1 year old Rubio stain (compliments of Iron Mike) on well sun tanned wood after two hours in UV box. Chatoyance on maple better with the stain than without. 

 

72A31A8F-072E-4A18-91B0-2DB64B9A72BE.thumb.jpeg.e621f80e59d30ac774b8ab249b209f80.jpeg

Might be my laptop screen but I don't see any yellow color in Mike's sauce. Maybe it has a short shelf life. Koen's primer had a 6 month shelf life if I'm not mistaken.

Brian's sauce definitely has yellow so his ingredients may be very different from the Roubo stain. If you read through his web page  you will find that Brian was a collector of many different organic dye stuffs.

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7 hours ago, not telling said:

 He told me the process and there are no chemical oxidizers other than what happens to the organic products over time. The process is gross and lengthy. 

So like if you were to go south of town to like n. 1000 rd / 458 area,  how would you go about asking an owner for possible equine services?

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@ Mike Jones and Jim Bress''''

Brian Lisus, RogerHargrave,  Koen Padding and Joe Thrift were all classmates at Newark so I'm wondering if anything about this primer was talked about at the Thrift Workshop this year?

Does Joe color the wood with a primer?

 

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7 hours ago, Urban Luthier said:

if I had to guess based on the description, his stain may be based on horse urine /dung. When talking to Roger durning the double bass thread I brought up the recipe below from the 18th century French cabinetmaker André Roubo. Roubo gives a recipe for staining wood derived from horse dung and urine l'art du Menuisier. 

If one believes that classical instruments were treated with this type of stain -- you can't get any more authentic than Roubo. There was also a discussion in the bass book on how this method was used by Aubert to stain bridges p 105. I put the Roubo recipe in the book as well.  [it is no wonder no one does this commercially - If Brian makes it I would buy it] ... alternatively  you could hang your violin in a chicken coop for a few weeks and see what happens!

Roubo recipe. 
"Before finishing the dyeing of wood, I believe I ought to give a least-costly method of dyeing white wood red [he says red but it is really dirty yellow], which is done in the following manner: You take some horse dung, which you put in a bucket of which the bottom is pierced with many holes, and you place it above another bucket, into which falls the water from the dung, as it gradually rots. When it does not rot fast enough, you water it from time to time with some horse urine, which helps a lot and at the same time gives a red water, which not only stains the surface of the wood, but penetrates the interior 3 to 4 lines deep. In staining the wood with this dye, one must take care that all the pieces be of the same species, and about equal in density if one wishes that they be of equal colour throughout. This observation is general for all water-based stains, which have no palpable thickness or even appearance [they leave no residue or any evident change in appearance], which requires the cabinetmaker to make a choice of wood of equal colour and a density as I mentioned before.” 

 

 

That’s one , another Rubio red is the same with the addition of straw to line the bottom of the first basket and wood ash laid over the top of the manure before  wetting , both I assume would trigger nitrogen to bond with potassium from the ash and straw alike creating a saltpeter. 

 

32 minutes ago, lpr5184 said:

Might be my laptop screen but I don't see any yellow color in Mike's sauce. Maybe it has a short shelf life. Koen's primer had a 6 month shelf life if I'm not mistaken.

Brian's sauce definitely has yellow so his ingredients may be very different from the Roubo stain. If you read through his web page  you will find that Brian was a collector of many different organic dye stuffs.

The Rubio Red I ,these days believe, was developed so that the red varnish does not go pink or orange in the over cotes, to much purity in the ground ,lack of black, brown components, starves the transparent reds to come ,

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16 minutes ago, lpr5184 said:

@ Mike Jones and Jim Bress''''

Brian Lisus, RogerHargrave,  Koen Padding and Joe Thrift were all classmates at Newark so I'm wondering if anything about this primer was talked about at the Thrift Workshop this year?

Does Joe color the wood with a primer?

 

Basically yes and yes , 

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9 minutes ago, lpr5184 said:

Can you elaborate?

Kinda had to be there, but fwiw, urban luthier and I have shared our methods and some people seem to like it, some , not so much. 

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1 hour ago, James M. Jones said:

creating a saltpeter

I mist my fiddles with a weak solution of potassium nitrate during tanning, helps a good deal and doesn't smell like shit.

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7 hours ago, James M. Jones said:

That’s one , another Rubio red is the same with the addition of straw to line the bottom of the first basket and wood ash laid over the top of the manure before  wetting , both I assume would trigger nitrogen to bond with potassium from the ash and straw alike creating a saltpeter.

Yes, "dung liquor" has been a major source of the saltpeter (potassium nitrate) used in gunpowder, the oxidizer used to supply the oxygen for the quick combustion reaction.

There was a time when it was usually included in "chemistry kits" for kids, but I don't think it is any more. :D

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