f hole mystery

[Eloffe]

After extensive research on-line and in various publications

I am unable to find any maker"s  f hole pattern that matches this one 

i am hoping someone on this forum may be able to recognize the style or maker 

 

[uguntde]

You have an American flag in the baxkground. Could it nevertheless be an English cello?

[FiddleDoug]

You really should post more pictures if you want an answer. See the sticky at the top  on picture taking.

[baroquecello]

To me it looks like the upper hole was enlarged.

[martin swan]

Well, the cello is clearly a built on the back construction, and in combination with that f-hole shape I would have said either Saxony or more likely a homebrew of some kind.

The decoration looks Swedish, so I would guess the cello is Scandinavian, or at least the bits of it we're looking at. 

[Eloffe]

11 hours ago, baroquecello said:

To me it looks like the upper hole was enlarged.

11 hours ago, baroquecello said:

To me it looks like the upper hole was enlarged.

that is a possibility that has not been considered before thank you

[Johnmasters]

An Eastern European Gypsy instrument ?

[Torbjörn Zethelius]

20 hours ago, martin swan said:

The decoration looks Swedish, so I would guess the cello is Scandinavian, or at least the bits of it we're looking at. 

I don't recognise the decoration as Scandinavian. American?

[Andreas Preuss]

If it weren't overloaded with ornamentations I almost had said Alemanic school, but I think this thing needs to be viewed in person. I guess those alemanic makers wouldn't use the bourbon lily as an ornamentation anyway.

Were the ribs inserted into the back? Does it have linings? how big are the corner blocks? And What materials were used?

All the ornamentations are painted, right?

Is the button on the back a repair?

The  head is new?

 

[JacksonMaberry]

The f holes look like they were cut by someone who once saw a Stainer across a smoky room.

[mood2000]

the back button show raised buttons of some early italian style .

you have to attach some clear photos .

1. scroll .

2. lower rib + saddle

3. inside (blocks if possible) or describe the blocks and linings 

4. the back length .

5. purfling close up 

5. any label or stamps ??

without good shoots we can not clarify your cello whether italian or  Saxon or etc. ....

 

[mood2000]

btw the f-hole also early italian style 

[Eloffe]

photos as requested,

the scroll while in itself is very interesting is not directly related to the body

i think the idea that the f holes have been enlarged is very likely given the notches are not even 

thanks for your input so far and in advance for any more

[Eloffe]

also..............

back length is 755mm [lessbutton]

button is original

designs are ink or paint [not inlay]

back is one piece, not maple, very plain even grain

ribs appear to be cut down in height assuming the side designs were symmetrical 

[Ratcliffiddles]

Hi R,

Nice to see it again.

Here is some other decoration from another, very similar cello. The ribs on yours have obviously been reduced. Pattern on C rib is identical.    Fascinating instrument.  This suggests, that decoration is original. The dendro test on the other one suggest a manufacture very close to 1700, but I suppose that was obvious to many. I suspect also that it was built on the back construction.

 

 

 

[mood2000]

as a quick answer but not sure until i go back to my home , i don't have any reference at the moment , i guess made in Tyrol , inspired by old Venetian work such as (Domenico Montagnana profile) .

Before World War I , the Italian town of Bolzano was part of the Austro-Hungarian country of Tyrol . It was called Bozen . The population spoke German . Bozen did not become Italian until 1919 , when it was annexed by Italy at the end of the first World War . At the time of its annexation Bozen had a population of 30,000 German-speaking people 

but wait until i go back to my home to recheck my reference books and doing some searches . 

some of the instruments with this kind of ornamentation, the ink was on top of the varnish. Some varnishes may not be compatible and the solvent in the ink might dissolve the varnish and make a mess. When done, a clear varnish needs to go over the ink. Without testing the varnish, there is no way for me to know if it is compatible with the ink , a good example for this kind of decoration is the Norwegian hardanger fiddle (hardingfele) .

 

[Blank face]

I won't go deeper into the matter of "Tyrolean", but it was often and detailed discussed before that there was not much violin making in Tyrol beside Stainer and the Albanis of Bolzano, and all of them used an inner mould construction, which the OP clearly has not.

This construction and looking at the very distinct "pineapple" (?) decoration and diamond alike patterns, taking into consideration the time frame mentioned by Peter, it seems very likely IMO that the cello belongs or is close related to what's known as the Allemannische Schule, located in Switzerland (Krouchdaler) and Black Forest (Straub family).

For comparison look here

https://www.booklooker.de/B%C3%BCcher/Olga-Adelmann+Die-Alemannische-Schule-Archaischer-Geigenbau-des-17-Jahrhunderts-im-s%C3%BCdlichen/id/A02idtMk01ZZP?zid=266270195bc1e57ca6d6bfb6e102da97

or here

https://www.sim.spk-berlin.de/bildergalerie_mim_sammelschwerpunkte_708.html

Edit: I've seen that this origin was mentioned before by Andreas: Because the decoration is here just painted, not inlaid anymore like in the older instruments from the late 17th century, may sort the OP cello into a "degenerated" epigone period, using and integrating elements of other origins, too. The later Straub family of Friedenweiler or Röthenbach produced much more simple instruments with inked purfling only, so this could be the first step into this direction.

It would be interesting to hear more about the instrument from @Ratcliffiddles

[Ron1]

I think the decorations are definitely scandinavian- esp the 'tulip flower' at the corners; they are reminiscent of the old "kolrosing" method of decorating- rubbing charcoal into scribed/cut lines, although these are thicker, and apparently painted-on line work.

[Ron1]

Sample:

[Eloffe]

 update on what i have learned about this instrument

I showed this instrument to a visiting Baroque performer 

who is a graduate of Cardiff Uni and The Royal Academy specialized in Baroque cello she identified the body and form as a bass violin [the neck being more recent] 

wikipedia suggests only 2 makers of bass violins Andrea Amati and Gasparo Da Salo

i see a strong similarity between the next two images the first being a bass known to be made by Gasparo Da Salo and the second being my bass violin

What do you think? 

 

 

[J.DiLisio]

Bass violin

[Eloffe]

bass violin not double bass

[Bruce Carlson]

2 hours ago, Eloffe said:

 update on what i have learned about this instrument

I showed this instrument to a visiting Baroque performer 

who is a graduate of Cardiff Uni and The Royal Academy specialized in Baroque cello she identified the body and form as a bass violin [the neck being more recent] 

wikipedia suggests only 2 makers of bass violins Andrea Amati and Gasparo Da Salo

i see a strong similarity between the next two images the first being a bass known to be made by Gasparo Da Salo and the second being my bass violin

What do you think? 

No similarity at all. 

Wikipedia at times  is very weak, much depends upon where they gleaned the information or who wrote the text.

[Blank face]

I think it is very clear that the instrument is from what's called Allemannische Schule . Typical model, typical decorations and typical size. The Adelmann book is listing many bass instruments of different sizes, but always violin shaped, never "Da Gamba" or double bass alike.

Of course many of them were mislabelled and sometimes certified as old Brescian.

The fact that the decorations are painted on, not inlaid, and the general construction indicates that it was made at a later period than most of them, maybe mid 18th century.

[Eloffe]

1 hour ago, Blank face said:

the general construction indicates that it was made at a later period than most of them, maybe mid 18th century.

Thanks for your replies

did the Allemannische Schule continue to make bass violins up to this period 

or would you call my instrument a wide bodied cello