Mysterious Joseph Dalagio Fecit in Mantua


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4 hours ago, martin swan said:

No - sorry, the usual Schoenbach cottage industry thpe of thing

I am not disputing that its the "usual",but those are short stubby corners for the "usual".

It may be the angles, but it seems to be the high Stainer, pinched in the middle, type arching.

Split bottom rib,but no markie notch visible.

Do Schonbach violins have notches ?

 

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5 minutes ago, martin swan said:

What is a "markie notch"? It's the norm for Mittenwald violins to have a notch at the centre bottom of the bottom rib.

There have been a couple of Markies in the last two weeks which either Blankface or Jacob has identified which had a notch in the center of the back plate,and not in the rib, like Mittenwald have. On reflection,the notch might have been on a Hungarian, or Viennese,or some other violin, but I remember it being in the center of the back plate. I think I have seen this on one of my own violins, but I am too lazy to look through case's to find it.

Of course,its also highly likely I have got mixed up about this.  :lol:

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1 hour ago, martin swan said:

it is sometimes seen on older MK instruments but it’s not as ubiquitous as the Mittenwald notch!

That would make sense,as many markies have a two piece back and the center line would serve in place of a notch to show the middle.

So I guess the ones I remembered  would have a one piece back and therefore require a notch to show the center line for the rib join and endpin placement.

Anyway,its useful to know the notch is found on older markies. Thanks. :)

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the label is the best evidence for identification , a lot of people they disagree with that thing .

from the label you can decide whether (original, facsimile , fake as inserted later , trade or brand-name & etc. .....)  

i haven't seen the original label of an authentic violin made by the master , 

but i can analyze that label as the type of font & the spilling .

Transliteration : "Josef" indicate as a German or Czech spilling not "Joseph as an English but also wrong spilling too , so here we can estimate the year of made after the Master , approximately in late 19th century ( c. 1880 ) maybe less or more because the pictures & indoor light can effect some difference , but for sure it is made pre- 1920 .

the correct spilling is (Giuseppe) Not (Joseph / Josef) . also Not (Dalaglio) the correct one is with double (L) like this one (Dall'aglio).

characteristic of the maker's work  : 

Long open f-holes with almost del Gesu like "extended lower wings; flat arch (usually) - some have a higher pinched form; scroll quite un-geometrical and not highly finished,  Golden-yellow, sometimes darker orange color , varnish of hard texture".

according to Bromptson's Book , unfortunately they text the label as two forms both in wrong spilling which indicate to me that labels were collected from some commercial instrument sold in auction houses  & also No proof for original label image .

====================================
Biography 


"Giuseppe Dall'aglio (II)"  According to Bromptson's Book :
DALL'AGLIO, Giuseppe (II)
worked c. 1795-1840 Mantua Italy
A fascinating maker, whose style reflects a much earlier period, and seems directly inspired by Camilli or Peter Guarneri of Mantua. The work can appear clumsy and unregulated - the middle bouts have a tendency to dip too far inward. But they succeed in conveying the fluency and character of the great Italian work of the 18th century.
Long open soundholes with almost del Gesti-like extended lower wings; flat arch (usually) - some have a higher pinched form; scroll quite ungeometrical and not highly finished, but having some charm. Golden-yellow, sometimes darker orange, varnish of hard texture but fine quality.

Joseph Dall'Aglio /fecit in Mantuae / Anno 1814
Joseph Dalaglio /fecit in Mantuae / Anno 1824

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On 7/3/2018 at 6:17 AM, mood2000 said:

the label is the best evidence for identification , a lot of people they disagree with that thing .

from the label you can decide whether (original, facsimile , fake as inserted later , trade or brand-name & etc. .....)  

 

Better reverse that opening statement.

"The label is no evidence for identification, though some people disagree with this."

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7 hours ago, Herman West said:

"The label is no evidence for identification, though some people disagree with this."

that is the biggest mistake .

sometimes but not always , we can identify the estimated an approximate years

 

for example : 

Suzuki violin made in Nippon & Suzuki violin made in Japan , both violins from the same firm .

So can you tell me what is the difference between both of them ?

 

another example :

what is the difference between Made in (Czech , Czechoslovakia , & Cecho-Slowakia ?

 

Answer the questions Please  

 

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the original Stradivarius violin has a label too .

What do the labels tell us ?

an appraiser will look at the color of the label , both the wood and the label on a very old violin will darken . Edges of a label on a more modern instrument may curl up exposing a lighter shade of wood beneath , sometimes a clue that the wood was treated to make it look older than it is . Sometimes a label will appear to have been removed , often a second line will appear where a bigger or different location label had been , sometimes a label is removed for a repair or when an instrument has been re-graduated .

 

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On 7/2/2018 at 3:11 PM, retrieverim said:

You guys are awesome! :)

Thanks for the verification. I have returned the item back to the seller. Hopefully he'll accept it back. 

Please keep us posted on this.  A lot of MNetters buy stuff on eBay.  If you PM me a link to the original listing, I'd be interested.

3 minutes ago, mood2000 said:

the original Stradivarius violin has a label too .

What do the labels tell us ?

an appraiser will look at the color of the label , both the wood and the label on a very old violin will darken . Edges of a label on a more modern instrument may curl up exposing a lighter shade of wood beneath , sometimes a clue that the wood was treated to make it look older than it is . Sometimes a label will appear to have been removed , often a second line will appear where a bigger or different location label had been , sometimes a label is removed for a repair or when an instrument has been re-graduated .

 

Mood, honey, please leave it alone.  Labels on violins, like mei on sword tangs, are secondary indicators at best.  As a worst case, real Strad labels have been found in a few violins by other makers.  Overall, mislabeling has been disgustingly common since about the time Mozart was still a child prodigy.  :)

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11 hours ago, mood2000 said:

the original Stradivarius violin has a label too .

What do the labels tell us ?

an appraiser will look at the color of the label , both the wood and the label on a very old violin will darken . Edges of a label on a more modern instrument may curl up exposing a lighter shade of wood beneath , sometimes a clue that the wood was treated to make it look older than it is . Sometimes a label will appear to have been removed , often a second line will appear where a bigger or different location label had been , sometimes a label is removed for a repair or when an instrument has been re-graduated .

 

Many of the  Strads with Strad labels have original labels but from different violins.

Your scenario doesn't really cope with the reality of the vast majority of violins, which have original fake labels.

But the OP violin is perfect example of the error of your position ... 

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that's right Martin , also i agree with Violadamore too .

 

As i mentioned in my previous post  "both the wood and the label on a very old violin will darken . Edges of a label on a more modern instrument may curl up exposing a lighter shade of wood beneath"

so if someone had taken an original Stradivarius label & re-glued in different modern violin, the appraisers can know that from the shade of wood .

my point is, as i said before ; the label can tell us whether a fake label or inserted later from another instrument or  to confirm if the label is genuine or not 

for non experts that label of course could misleading them (I know that).
also that misleading label mentioned in the certificate or document or letter by the same appraisers to .... 
that's why i have to clarify to non expert or the ordinary people .

sometimes the appraisers scratch the label to check the color & the shade of  (wood & label) for confirmation .

 

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To know if a label is genuine or not, you first have to positively identify the instrument as if there were no label present.

Then, and only then, can you look to see if the label is authentic to the violin.

So everything you are talking about is secondary to the process of appraisal, and can only serve to tell you whether a label belongs if you have already established the identity of the violin.

 

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