Decent violin. Old or new? 20's Trade or Chinese?

[MikeV]

Been considering a student level violin.  I know there are a great many lower end trade violins from:

 + Juzek: Before 1960's

 + Pfretzschner : Before 1970's

 + Meniel and Herold

vs. Chinese instruments from Yita and Old Violin House.  Seem to be favored by folks online.

Knowing that the quality varies on these instruments.  Which would probably be the best bet

from a playable violin perspective?

 

[deans]

Any of these choices could be a good serviceable student instrument. Or not. Set up is very important. Whatever your choice, I would make it something purchased from a shop that is known for good set up and providing for the student market.

[MikeV]

47 minutes ago, deans said:

Any of these choices could be a good serviceable student instrument. Or not. Set up is very important. Whatever your choice, I would make it something purchased from a shop that is known for good set up and providing for the student market.

Do you think the quality among these choices is close enough that it comes down to setup?

[nathan slobodkin]

6 minutes ago, MikeV said:

Do you think the quality among these choices is close enough that it comes down to setup?

Everything comes down to set up. A Rolls Royce with a flat tire won't get you to work.

Among the labels you quoted you will find, pretty much at random, serviceable instruments and utter junk. The best bet is do some careful vetting of violin shops, go to one with a good reputation and let them help you find an instrument appropriate to your needs.

[MikeV]

1 hour ago, nathan slobodkin said:

Everything comes down to set up. A Rolls Royce with a flat tire won't get you to work.

Among the labels you quoted you will find, pretty much at random, serviceable instruments and utter junk. The best bet is do some careful vetting of violin shops, go to one with a good reputation and let them help you find an instrument appropriate to your needs.

Maybe make it more specific, at least for 1 model.  Pfretzschner 301 is pretty ubiquitous.   Are these worth while?

[avandesande]

Old trade violins can have hidden expensive repairs or just sound lousy. I generally recommend used name brand Chinese such as Eastman, Scott cao etc.... your risk is low and you can usually sell them again for what you paid.

[ClefLover]

One of my fiddles was from Yitamusic and I have enjoyed it as a backup instrument.  Although not as well-built as higher end Eastman violins, it sounds pretty good with a certain darkness to it.  I slapped some Pirazzi strings on it and serves well for outdoor activities.  

[deans]

14 minutes ago, MikeV said:

Pfretzschner 301 is pretty ubiquitous.   Are these worth while?

I would take one of the Chinese you mentioned over this particular model. But if you buy directly from China you will most likely need some set up tweeks. I bought a Yita once, it was very nice for the price but unworkable straight from the box.

[MikeV]

1 minute ago, deans said:

I would take one of the Chinese you mentioned over this particular model. But if you buy directly from China you will most likely need some set up tweeks. I bought a Yita once, it was very nice for the price but unworkable straight from the box.

Any models you'd suggest from the European trade instrument options?

[Rue]

Over the years I've tried every approach; old German Trade violin, better small shop violin, a couple of bigger brand instruments, Yita (a violin and a viola) and finally, a custom-made instrument (which I love).

My Yitas played very well straight out of the box, unlike Deans'.  The violin came with Dominants.  The strings on the viola did have to be changed out, but the rest was more or less good to go.  The Yita violin, despite some shortcomings, has become my preferred back up instrument.

If I was starting out, knowing what I know now, I would buy a well-known brand, intermediate level, instrument, such as Eastman 305, that has been properly set-up, to begin with.  Hopefully it will be decent enough not to hold you back.  Should you ever outgrow it, you'll know you are ready for the next level (and that your success, or lack thereof, was not so much due to the instrument, but more to all the hard work you put in).

[deans]

10 minutes ago, MikeV said:

Any models you'd suggest from the European trade instrument options?

I always liked the Rudoulf Doetsch line from Weaver's shop. But I suspect that nowdays they come from China or Romania, I haven't seen one made in the last 10 years or so, maybe they aren't so hot anymore. The ones from the Weaver era were really good for the price, I still have one that can do almost anything you need from a violin. Look for an older one.

[ClefLover]

The Eastman lines (Doetsch, Andreas Eastman, Wyss, Etc.) have pretty good resale value in the case you outgrow them unlike standard Chinese workshops.  Again, I like my Yita but it doesn’t nearly match the quality of my Eastman violin.

[MikeV]

3 hours ago, Rue said:

Over the years I've tried every approach; old German Trade violin, better small shop violin, a couple of bigger brand instruments, Yita (a violin and a viola) and finally, a custom-made instrument (which I love).

My Yitas played very well straight out of the box, unlike Deans'.  The violin came with Dominants.  The strings on the viola did have to be changed out, but the rest was more or less good to go.  The Yita violin, despite some shortcomings, has become my preferred back up instrument.

If I was starting out, knowing what I know now, I would buy a well-known brand, intermediate level, instrument, such as Eastman 305, that has been properly set-up, to begin with.  Hopefully it will be decent enough not to hold you back.  Should you ever outgrow it, you'll know you are ready for the next level (and that your success, or lack thereof, was not so much due to the instrument, but more to all the hard work you put in).

I've heard good things about Eastman, thx for providing context.  Has anyone compared to Snow?

[Jeff White]

9 hours ago, nathan slobodkin said:

Everything comes down to set up. A Rolls Royce with a flat tire won't get you to work.

Among the labels you quoted you will find, pretty much at random, serviceable instruments and utter junk. The best bet is do some careful vetting of violin shops, go to one with a good reputation and let them help you find an instrument appropriate to your needs.

Amen, Mike V, pay attention to this post.  Rue is not far off in my opinion, but the setup is EVERYTHING!!!!  We like to simplify things down to just purchase "items", (this, or that)but it's not the case

[MikeV]

7 hours ago, Jeff White said:

Amen, Mike V, pay attention to this post.  Rue is not far off in my opinion, but the setup is EVERYTHING!!!!  We like to simplify things down to just purchase "items", (this, or that)but it's not the case

I'm aware of the impact of setup.  I've seen what it can do first hand.  

[Violadamore]

23 hours ago, MikeV said:

Been considering a student level violin.  I know there are a great many lower end trade violins from:

 + Juzek: Before 1960's

 + Pfretzschner : Before 1970's

 + Meniel and Herold

vs. Chinese instruments from Yita and Old Violin House.  Seem to be favored by folks online.

Knowing that the quality varies on these instruments.  Which would probably be the best bet

from a playable violin perspective?

 

IMHO, outside of the setup (the quality of which is under your control), unless you get to examine and play the violin first, either way is a matter of Luck or Divine Providence (depending on your point of view).  The differences between great rubbish and horrid rubbish of identical provenance can be immense, even with new Chinese.

[GeorgeH]

While there is an important emphasis on tone and playability in regards to set-up, you should also know that a bad set-up in which the action is too high can cause repetitive stress injuries, particularly to the fourth finger.

I think that some very good buys of decent used (recently played) violins can be found on Craigslist (and you get to try them first) but if you do decide to buy a violin outside of a trusted dealer or shop, then be sure to get it examined by a luthier to be sure the action is correct.

A good rule of thumb is to mentally add $200 - $300 to the price of a privately purchased used violin for a new bridge, soundpost, fingerboard dressing, and strings.

Oh, and look very closely for cracks in the pegbox.

[ClefLover]

18 hours ago, MikeV said:

I've heard good things about Eastman, thx for providing context.  Has anyone compared to Snow?

My son started with a Snow SC300 cello but upgraded to an Eastman Jonathan Li as the “potential” seemed the best out of the box for the Snow, and slowly degraded despite our string pairings and adjustments.  He has since added a 2nd cello, a Rainer Leonhardt, as the Li and Leonhardt both have remarkable capabilities and he can’t just settle with either one.  To me, the Leonhardt is a sweeter smoother tone while the Jonathan Li is a bold and powerful beast. I too have an Eastman Wyss violin and is my favorite out of my collection.  I like my old vintage “Klutz” (nickname, not Klotz) but doesn’t have the projection and tone I prefer, I just like having an old violin to tinker with.

[MikeV]

Anyone know the difference between the Eastman VL and NV violin lines?  I'm assuming NV is the older naming convention.

[ClefLover]

2 hours ago, MikeV said:

Anyone know the difference between the Eastman VL and NV violin lines?  I'm assuming NV is the older naming convention.

“VL” stands for “violin”, VC “violoncello” and VA “viola.”  I’ve never heard of “NV...”

[mood2000]

to me the old European trade violins are still European , i mean these violins still in exist and still in trade with a good value for a fair market price , of course if the violin should be in a good condition with a fresh set up .

Comparing with Chinese instruments, there is no place for these violin instead of Chinese factory made .
but for the beginners student they can start up with the Chinese workshops such as a Yeta or so these work shops are not so bad also you will get the violin in a reasonable prices to start up with , but if you want to sell it back it will worth nothing , then for the next student level (intermediate/advanced) you must to have one of that European violins in a good value and for investment too .
that is in general thought
but you have to test the instrument before you purchase .

[MikeV]

25 minutes ago, mood2000 said:

to me the old European trade violins are still European , i mean these violins still in exist and still in trade with a good value for a fair market price , of course if the violin should be in a good condition with a fresh set up .

Comparing with Chinese instruments, there is no place for these violin instead of Chinese factory made .
but for the beginners student they can start up with the Chinese workshops such as a Yeta or so these work shops are not so bad also you will get the violin in a reasonable prices to start up with , but if you want to sell it back it will worth nothing , then for the next student level (intermediate/advanced) you must to have one of that European violins in a good value and for investment too .
that is in general thought
but you have to test the instrument before you purchase .

That's a good perspective.  Thx.

[ClefLover]

I recommend Eastman or Jay Haide for newer instruments, they tend retain their market value much higher than others.  I’m sure there are more.   

[Al Cramer]

It's not for everybody, but if you've got good manual skills and a mild case of OCD (obsessive-compulsive-disorder) you can teach yourself how to do a halfway decent setup using the resources posted on the net (this site is a fabulous source of info). Also minor top cracks can be repaired externally with hide glue, without opening up the top. So if you're willing to put up with a scruffy looking instrument, and find instrument repair a pleasurable challenge, there's lots of interesting old German trade fiddles that show up on reverb.com in the 300-400$ price range. 

But you should only consider this if you've already developed a good model in your head for what a violin ought to sound like; and are willing to spend 3 days fiddling around with sound posts and bridges.