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Walnut hull tint

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Hi all

Does somebody use walnut hull (liquid) as a pigment for colouroing varnish?
In Argentina we call "nogalina" (nogal = walnut)

Regards

Tango

 

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Not for colouring varnish, but I have used it as a ground colour for a Brecian viola, also used it for colouring the inside of instruments, and of course it works great for craquelure. 

it can also be a useful tool for taking the whiteness of a new piece of wood in restoration 

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4 hours ago, tango said:

Hi all

Does somebody use walnut hull (liquid) as a pigment for colouroing varnish?
In Argentina we call "nogalina" (nogal = walnut)

Regards

Tango

 

Usually known as Van Dyke Crystals.

I use them in various dilutions to stain antique furniture before french polishing. I have no idea if it could be mixed with oil based violin varnish, but a Google search does not yield any results.

 

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I have used it to stain my #3, it went incredibly dark. Too dark :huh:

Luckily the intensity of the darkness faded to less than half in a few weeks.

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I have used a lake of walnut hull pigment -- in dried form -- to add color to oil and spirit varnishes together with other pigments.  I like its flexibility and can get a lot of different results along the red-brown spectrum.  I make the pigment from scratch.

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1 hour ago, Julian Cossmann Cooke said:

I have used a lake of walnut hull pigment .....  I make the pigment from scratch.

May I ask, which part of walnut you use to "scratch" :

- the green walnut hull, which is commonly used (soft and green at the beginning ) just dried and later sratched by you without using metal salts like alum or tin   ?

or 

- the green walnut hull, solved and cooked in water, later using the precipitated part after drying / or using the solutíon with hydroxide and alum  /tin ...

or

- the brown walnut hull (solid from the beginning ) , scratched ?

Does "scratched" means something different from grinding or crushing in mortar ?

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6 minutes ago, Danube Fiddler said:

Does "scratched" means something different from grinding or crushing in mortar ?

I think he means from the start, so from the raw materials, not the verb 'to scratch' :)

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10 hours ago, finnfinnviolin said:

Not for colouring varnish, but I have used it as a ground colour for a Brecian viola, also used it for colouring the inside of instruments, and of course it works great for craquelure. 

it can also be a useful tool for taking the whiteness of a new piece of wood in restoration 

This. It's a great tool. I didn't feel like it's very easy to control the color though. Doesn't it fade a lot? If not, at least, it changes a lot. But for how it can produce a craqueleur effect for antiqued instruments, it's amazing.

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Your English is quite good Danube!

As for walnut lake, that's interesting .. can any natural dye be made into a lake?

Sofar i have only made a madder lake.

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15 minutes ago, Urban Luthier said:

i made a walnut lake using walnut extract in the usual manner (fixed to alum). It is nice and transparent but i have not tested it for lightfastness. one note of caution -- the dye extract above is extremely powerful -- a little goes a long way

Yes, I made the mistake of using it on the interior of an unsealed instrument. The wood was more porous than I thought and it peppered through to the outside, little pox-marks on the ribs and worse in the end-grained areas of the back.

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1 hour ago, Emilg said:

Your English is quite good Danube!

As for walnut lake, that's interesting .. can any natural dye be made into a lake?

Sofar i have only made a madder lake.

Hi Emilg,

most natural dyes can be transformed into a lake ( this is a not water-soluble metal-salt of a natural dye, in the very most cases beeing an (weak) acid. This is also called "fixing" of (watersoluble) dyes. Not watersoluble colours as e.g. santalin can at first be solved by use e.g. of sodium carbonate / or sodium hydroxide and later be precipitated by alum / tin-chloride and some other salts. The metal -ion has a very great influence on the final colour. As I have read, tin-fixed-pigments are often more beautiful than Al-fixed ones in yellow/red dyes. However the use of tin is not so good for our environment and the substance is a little bit dangerous ( tin chlorid is quite strong acidly).

There is an unbelievable number of natural dyes, which can be fixed on this way. Very often lightfastness is better after this. 

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1 hour ago, Emilg said:

As for walnut lake, that's interesting ....

For walnut this procedure apparently is not necessary, because after some time a walnut-hull-solution will separate a natural pigment by itself without any use of metal salts ( only have read this, never made own experiments). However there could be differences in beautiness between the from-alone-pigments and metal-salt-pigments of walnut.

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3 hours ago, Danube Fiddler said:

May I ask, which part of walnut you use to "scratch" :

- the green walnut hull, which is commonly used (soft and green at the beginning ) just dried and later sratched by you without using metal salts like alum or tin   ?

or 

- the green walnut hull, solved and cooked in water, later using the precipitated part after drying / or using the solutíon with hydroxide and alum  /tin ...

or

- the brown walnut hull (solid from the beginning ) , scratched ?

Does "scratched" means something different from grinding or crushing in mortar ?

I use hulls that have rotted on the ground to point where they are dark brown and mushy or dried.  I put them in a solution of water and potassium carbonate, leaving them overnight.  The next day, I strain out the hulls and add alum.  The remaining water, once the pigment has precipitated to the bottom, I siphon off, adding fresh water and siphoning until the water is clear.

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1 hour ago, Danube Fiddler said:

There is an unbelievable number of natural dyes, which can be fixed on this way. Very often lightfastness is better after this. 

Hi Danube, i had already gathered some other natural dyes: alkanet, cochenille, turmuric, yellow henna, annato, walnut and catechu. I will try to make some lakes!

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1 hour ago, Julian Cossmann Cooke said:

I use hulls that have rotted on the ground to point where they are dark brown and mushy or dried.  I put them in a solution of water and potassium carbonate, leaving them overnight.  The next day, I strain out the hulls and add alum.  The remaining water, once the pigment has precipitated to the bottom, I siphon off, adding fresh water and siphoning until the water is clear.

Thanks for the recipe !

I would like to try something similar and test lightfastness.

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1 hour ago, Julian Cossmann Cooke said:

I use hulls that have rotted on the ground to point where they are dark brown and mushy or dried.  I put them in a solution of water and potassium carbonate, leaving them overnight.  The next day, I strain out the hulls and add alum.  The remaining water, once the pigment has precipitated to the bottom, I siphon off, adding fresh water and siphoning until the water is clear.

Basically thats the lake. Although it will work better with walnut extract

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To dry, strain the remaining "mud" through coffee filters and scrape the wet pigment -- it looks like chocolate pudding at this point -- into a flat dish.  It will air dry over a few days and you will be left with a remarkably small amount of pigment.  But a little bit goes a long way -- it doesn't take much to color the varnish.  Keep the pigment in a jar with a tight lid.  When you test for lightfastness, be sure to mull the  pigment well into the varnish so you are mimicking the exact physical relationship between pigment and varnish when used on an instrument.  When you think you've mulled enough, mull for another 15 minutes to half an hour and then you probably will be done.

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2 hours ago, Julian Cossmann Cooke said:

To dry, strain the remaining "mud" through coffee filters and scrape the wet pigment -- it looks like chocolate pudding at this point -- into a flat dish.  It will air dry over a few days and you will be left with a remarkably small amount of pigment.  But a little bit goes a long way -- it doesn't take much to color the varnish.  Keep the pigment in a jar with a tight lid.  When you test for lightfastness, be sure to mull the  pigment well into the varnish so you are mimicking the exact physical relationship between pigment and varnish when used on an instrument.  When you think you've mulled enough, mull for another 15 minutes to half an hour and then you probably will be done.

Thanks very much also for the details ! 

A lot of effort in mulling seems to be of advantage.

Sadly the self-making of pigments is also often a time-consuming thing. 

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On 5/11/2018 at 11:51 AM, tango said:

Hi all

Does somebody use walnut hull (liquid) as a pigment for colouroing varnish?
In Argentina we call "nogalina" (nogal = walnut)

Regards

Tango

 

Interesting idea. But I wonder how you can combine a water soluble stain with an alcohol varnish or worse with an oil varnish.

Or you would need to make a water varnish. (seems to have been used by some Fussen makers.)

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